- 24,488
- 15,056
The vacuum is Poincare invariant, which means that it's not (!) defining a preferred reference frame.
Does this word solves any known problems or only creates more problems?Demystifier said:The meaning of most words is not learned through their definitions. When I say "Jack is walking", no one will ask me to define "Jack", to define "is" or to define "walking". Even in pure math, if I say "The set exists", no mathematician will ask me to define "The", to define "set" or to define "exists". The meaning of most words is learned gradually, through examples. (Artificial neural networks in machine learning also learn through examples, but humans usually need much smaller number of examples to learn it efficiently.)
The word ontic is one such word. The meaning of "ontic" is somewhat similar to "real", but "ontic" has a narrower meaning. There is no precise definition, but it can be learned through examples. Here are some examples:
1. In classical mechanics, the particle position as a function of time ##x(t)## is ontic. Its Fourier transform ##\tilde{x}(\omega)## is not ontic.
2. In classical mechanics, anything that can directly be derived from ##x(t)## is ontic. The meaning of "directly" also has to be learned through examples. For instance, the velocity ##\dot{x}(t)## and acceleration ##\ddot{x}(t)## are directly derived from ##x(t)##. The momentum ##p(t)=m\dot{x}(t)## and the force ##F(x)## are not directly derived from ##x(t)##.
3. In classical mechanics, quantities that cannot be directly derived from ##x(t)## are not ontic. For example, mass ##m##, momentum ##p##, force ##F## and Lagrangian ##L(x,\dot{x})## are not ontic.
4. A classical wave ##\phi(x,t)## is ontic. Its spatial Fourier transform ##\tilde{\phi}(k,t)## is not ontic.
From those examples, one can use intelligent extrapolation to determine whether many other concepts in classical physics are ontic or not. (But in some cases it may not be obvious, so we may have have different interpretations of classical physics. That's particularly true in the theory of relativity.)
When one grasped the meaning of "ontic" in classical physics, one can start to think and talk about "ontic" in quantum physics.
Yes.MathematicalPhysicist said:Does this word solves any known problems or only creates more problems?
I am Copenhagen if I understand it correctly.Demystifier said:Yes.
More seriously, this word helps to explain what's the point of quantum interpretations such as Bohmian mechanics, many worlds or GRW. But interestingly, it often turns that those who don't get the point of such interpretations also don't get the meaning of that word. So I think it's safe to say that the o-word is helpful to some and creates even more problems to others.
Is there a good source for learning what the agent interpretation you're referrring to is? Are you talking about Bayesianism?Fra said:What I find most interesting with the dicussion is the relation between the ontic and the epistemological views. It is more interesting to see how they are related than how the oppose each other.
It's even a central point for me from and agent interpretation. The whole point there is that BOTH perspectives are required. The agent does inference, but this requires a context, which is can be thought ontic. It the pure epistemic interpretaiton, the information has no physical encoding, it's just imagine to be relative to some non-interacting observer. I think we are cure this, buy trying insisting that the epistemic view is attached to an "ontic" observer. Ie. a physical agent, part of the universe. Not just an abstraction. But the "ontics" in that view as kind of subjective. This is weird both from the classical ontic view and the CI view.
So I sort of see myself in the middle here.
/Fredrik
I guess it's the case with many interpretations and research directions, that there are variants of things. I do not feel that my stance is properly represented by one single source. But yes, it's strongly related to qbism, but my take on this is not just an "pure interpretation", but a reconstruction, which if you take it seriously has deep implications not just for the basic interpretations of stuff like wavefunction, the reconstruction should have implications for dynamics and the hierarchy of interactions and unification. This is NOT something that is part of the "basic Qbism" camps. But the question for som sort of reconstruction is part of the qbism think as well, but I recall many that declare themselves as qbists that i disagree with, this is why I avoid the label.Jarvis323 said:Is there a good source for learning what the agent interpretation you're referrring to is? Are you talking about Bayesianism?
- that's precisely why the 3rd persons ought to stay at the Copenhagen!Fra said:reality is more than any third-person perspective can capture
This already shows how nonsensical the word "ontic" is. A Fourier transformation is a one-to-one mapping within a appropriately defined space of functions. This ##\tilde{x}(\omega)## and ##x(t)## provide precisely the same information on the considered aspect of nature, in this case the trajectory of a classical point particle.Demystifier said:The meaning of most words is not learned through their definitions. When I say "Jack is walking", no one will ask me to define "Jack", to define "is" or to define "walking". Even in pure math, if I say "The set exists", no mathematician will ask me to define "The", to define "set" or to define "exists". The meaning of most words is learned gradually, through examples. (Artificial neural networks in machine learning also learn through examples, but humans usually need much smaller number of examples to learn it efficiently.)
The word ontic is one such word. The meaning of "ontic" is somewhat similar to "real", but "ontic" has a narrower meaning. There is no precise definition, but it can be learned through examples. Here are some examples:
1. In classical mechanics, the particle position as a function of time ##x(t)## is ontic. Its Fourier transform ##\tilde{x}(\omega)## is not ontic.
The Fourier transform is as directly derived from ##x(t)## as are the various derivatives. Why is momentum not ontic. You just need to consider another property of matter with a clear operational meaning, i.e., mass. So it's totally arbitrary what you call ontic and non-ontic. That's the impression I always have when discussing philosophical issues: The entire system of notions depends on the subjective world view of each of the individual philosopher. It's nothing well defined as in the natural sciences, where you have clear operational definitions of the fundamental notions within a theory (provided you deals with a more or less "closed theory" like classical mechanics, classical field theory, or quantum theory).Demystifier said:2. In classical mechanics, anything that can directly be derived from ##x(t)## is ontic. The meaning of "directly" also has to be learned through examples. For instance, the velocity ##\dot{x}(t)## and acceleration ##\ddot{x}(t)## are directly derived from ##x(t)##. The momentum ##p(t)=m\dot{x}(t)## and the force ##F(x)## are not directly derived from ##x(t)##.
If ##m## is non-onticDemystifier said:3. In classical mechanics, quantities that cannot be directly derived from ##x(t)## are not ontic. For example, mass ##m##, momentum ##p##, force ##F## and Lagrangian ##L(x,\dot{x})## are not ontic.
As you explain it, I've no clue what "ontic" means in classical physics nor in QT.Demystifier said:4. A classical wave ##\phi(x,t)## is ontic. Its spatial Fourier transform ##\tilde{\phi}(k,t)## is not ontic.
From those examples, one can use intelligent extrapolation to determine whether many other concepts in classical physics are ontic or not. (But in some cases it may not be obvious, so we may have have different interpretations of classical physics. That's particularly true in the theory of relativity.)
When one grasped the meaning of "ontic" in classical physics, one can start to think and talk about "ontic" in quantum physics.
There are different flavours of these things as well, but IMO the Copenhagen interpretation is not fully participatory, at least not in the deep sense I mean.AlexCaledin said:- that's precisely why the 3rd persons ought to stay at the Copenhagen!
Of course! It's the tangent view of the consistent histories approach. The observer is looking what history is actual, using the Copenhagen QM to predict what he's to see next. Still, he may be participating in the choice, but it seems unscientific to investigate how exactly that participation works.Fra said:I think of QM as we know it, as the "tangent space view" of some yet unknown theory.
Here we disagree, but it would be a separate discussion I think.AlexCaledin said:but it seems unscientific to investigate how exactly that participation works.
I’m not sure you’re referring to axiomatic reconstructions of QM from information-theoretic principles, but if so, this paper is aiming to make their ideas more tangible https://arxiv.org/abs/2107.06942 . In these approaches, the aim is to advance QM from an operational theory to a principle theory, like special relativity. This does not say anything about the ontology (constructive account), but that’s also true for special relativity and very few physicists care to work on that problem anymore.Fra said:Another problem is that the most basic reconstructions likely are so abstract that the gap to make contact to current physics is huge. Just look at how hard string theory has to make contact to reality.
/Fredrik
Fra said:. I think have the same hypthesis but from the subjective perspective. But doing it that way, one needs to replace the "constraint" but something else. And this sometihng else in my view is evolution in the agen population. This supposedly solve the "problem" with the subjective bayesianism.
First, if you think someone else's post violates the forum rules, please use the Report button. Don't make a public post like this.physika said:Personal approach, personal theory ?
Are allowed in this forum ?
PeterDonis said:First, if you think someone else's post violates the forum rules, please use the Report button. Don't make a public post like this.
Second, in this particular forum, since the subject matter (QM interpretations) in itself is essentially personal opinion, the ground rules are somewhat looser. The post you quoted from gives references and explains how the poster's own opinions relate to the references. That appears to me to be within bounds for this forum.
Does the justification for quantum interpretations require the term 'ontic' at all?Demystifier said:More seriously, this word helps to explain what's the point of quantum interpretations such as Bohmian mechanics, many worlds or GRW. But interestingly, it often turns that those who don't get the point of such interpretations also don't get the meaning of that word. So I think it's safe to say that the o-word is helpful to some and creates even more problems to others.
Demystifier said:More seriously, this word helps to explain what's the point of quantum interpretations such as Bohmian mechanics, many worlds or GRW. But interestingly, it often turns that those who don't get the point of such interpretations also don't get the meaning of that word. So I think it's safe to say that the o-word is helpful to some and creates even more problems to others.
Lynch101 said:Does the justification for quantum interpretations require the term 'ontic' at all?
Quantum interpretations are justified in that they are simply an expression of how the mathematics [potentially] corresponds to the physical universe, or 'the physical reality' in the parlance of EPR, and how those things in the physical universe are represented in the mathematics aka 'elements of the physical reality'.
These questions can be posed without recourse to the 'o-word'. Although it would simply be a case of 'a rose by any other name...'