Is it a myth that "Americans are too lazy to pursue STEM careers"?

[JakeBrodskyPE]

Are you saying they didn't have the capability to succeed in math or science? I find that a bit insulting to people who make different life choices than we did.

I have known many who decided to pursue the humanities, who by their own admission chose to because were "poor at math."

I know very few engineers who decided to enter the field because their reading or writing skills were sub-par.

I'm not trying to insult people here. I know that some choose the humanities because they like the challenge. I know that some choose the humanities for altruistic reasons.

Though I'm living comfortably, making money was never the primary goal. If that's what this is about, I'd have done what my brother has done: He's a corporate executive for a well known firm, with a specialty in intellectual property and patent law.

Except for my uncle who is retired, I am the only engineer in my extended family or among my wife's family among at least three generations.

Why did I choose it? Because I am a kid at heart. I love to build things with toys, the bigger the better. I would be doing this for fun even if I had to work in another field to support my habit.

Everyone has fields they pursue for their own reasons. Some of them are the very best of motives. Some of them are due to life circumstances, such as a series of awful math teachers throughout middle and high school. And some of them are just dumb luck.

Nevertheless, we should be honest about how these choices come about: Many of them happen because the subject of mathematics is presented in probably in the most awful, stupefying, and dull method possible. And then we sit and wonder why anyone would ever want to take an interest in STEM.

There is also a very strong bias against engineers in the executive boardrooms. Accountants? Sure. Lawyers? Of course! Operations managers? yes. Engineers or even Scientists? We have to claw our way in the door. People are scared of us. They're afraid we'll speak of things that they feel they ought to know but don't. They have no common references or experience they can rely upon to know when they're being lied to.

THAT is why we need more STEM education. It's not because we expect people to pick up these professions; it is because there is a terrifying ignorance in the boardrooms of companies across the world. And the only way to fix it is to educate.

 

[Jamin2112]

THAT is why we need more STEM education.

This thread is about STEM careers. We're churning out plenty of STEM students -- more than necessary. Businesses love it because they get to be more selective. But then we're left with a bunch of idle knowledge. I know people who've majored in Physics, Aerospace Engineering, Mathematics -- at good universities, too -- who are working at nightclubs, warehouses, etc. What a colossal waste. And I'm supposed to believe that not enough people want to go into STEM?

 

[StatGuy2000]

This thread is about STEM careers. We're churning out plenty of STEM students -- more than necessary. Businesses love it because they get to be more selective. But then we're left with a bunch of idle knowledge. I know people who've majored in Physics, Aerospace Engineering, Mathematics -- at good universities, too -- who are working at nightclubs, warehouses, etc. What a colossal waste. And I'm supposed to believe that not enough people want to go into STEM?

The thing is, I know people who graduated with degrees in History, Geography, English, (heck even Law or Accounting or Business) who are or were working at nightclubs, warehouses, retail, etc. So it is not as if STEM graduates are in any sense worse off than graduates in other fields. All of this is a consequence of an economy that is slowly recovering from the worst financial crisis the US (and the rest of the world) have experienced since the Great Depression. It's been 6 years, and if history is any guide, it will be another 5-6 years before unemployment will be fully recovered to pre-2008 levels.

I've come to believe, based on what I've seen, read, and heard, that with a few exceptions (e.g. statistics/data science, certain software/IT fields, quantitative finance, plumbing, electrical work, nursing), there is not a single field that exists right now in which there is a genuine shortage of workers in the US, either in blue collar or in white collar fields (the situation is different in Canada, where there is a huge labour shortage in the province of Alberta due to the current oil boom). And this is likely to be the case for at least the next 5 years.

Anyone care to contradict me on this point?

 

[Locrian]

There has been a significant shortage of health actuaries and skilled actuarial analysts for the last few years.

It will probably only last for a couple of years , so if you want to consider it an immaterial outlier that's okay with me.

 

[mal4mac]

And if you're an art student --YOU SHOULD STILL TAKE COURSES IN GEOMETRY AND MATHEMATICS!

But they don't. Instead we have illiterate and innumerate idiots roaming the Earth with college degrees.

And if you're a physics student --YOU SHOULD STILL TAKE COURSES IN DANCE AND FRENCH!--

But they don't. Instead we have monoglotic, terpsicorially challenged, idiots roaming the Earth with college degrees.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

And if you're a physics student --YOU SHOULD STILL TAKE COURSES IN DANCE AND FRENCH!--

But they don't. Instead we have monoglotic, terpsicorially challenged, idiots roaming the Earth with college degrees.

I see what you did there.

I strongly agree about language (I have learned three significantly different languages: Hebrew, French, and some Arabic --though I confess I've had more use for French than the other two). I'd broaden the notion of dance to at least one musical art: playing a musical instrument, or even cheer-leading.

 

[porcupine137]

At the university I went to, the STEM departments are filled to the brim every year. In fact the Computer Science department gets so many applicants that it let's in only 3-4% every quarter. And then you have business/political talking heads saying that Americans are too lazy to pursue careers in Computer Science, that we need to expand the number of H1B Visas in response to this crisis of a shortage of STEM workers. Something seems off.

Yeah, agreed.

IMO, it's just a scam so they can get cheap labor and make people, especially in computer programming, fear that if they don't work 7 days a week and come in on Christmas Eve, that they will be fired.

 

[davenn]

The nannies of the world have put their foot down, fearing risks to the kids.

Sorry, I just don't buy this. Microscopes, telescopes, and well designed meccano/chemistry/electronics sets aren't dangerous. Nannies aren't stupid, they know this.

I buy it, when you see the stupidity going on in schools

Today on the local news, a Queensland State, Australia school has just announced that its banning kids from doing cartwheels and other things like that in the playground unless supervised by a qualified gym teacher/instructor

WTF ... a kid cannot even play games they have since time immemorial .. they will ban hopscotch next !

and don't even get me started on kids and the internet ... they don't even know how to use it properly

you only need to see the dozens of posts on PF, that if they had even bothered to google their question they would have come up with 100's of answers
They can't even be bothered doing or maybe don't know how to do that

They would rather be silver platter/spoon-fed Dave

 

[StatGuy2000]

There has been a significant shortage of health actuaries and skilled actuarial analysts for the last few years.

It will probably only last for a couple of years , so if you want to consider it an immaterial outlier that's okay with me.

I do consider it an immaterial outlier since I suspect that the shortage is due at least in part to the bottleneck due to the certification of health actuaries (which is probably why it will last only for a couple of years).

 

[StatGuy2000]

The thing is, I know people who graduated with degrees in History, Geography, English, (heck even Law or Accounting or Business) who are or were working at nightclubs, warehouses, retail, etc. So it is not as if STEM graduates are in any sense worse off than graduates in other fields. All of this is a consequence of an economy that is slowly recovering from the worst financial crisis the US (and the rest of the world) have experienced since the Great Depression. It's been 6 years, and if history is any guide, it will be another 5-6 years before unemployment will be fully recovered to pre-2008 levels.

I've come to believe, based on what I've seen, read, and heard, that with a few exceptions (e.g. statistics/data science, certain software/IT fields, quantitative finance, plumbing, electrical work, nursing), there is not a single field that exists right now in which there is a genuine shortage of workers in the US, either in blue collar or in white collar fields (the situation is different in Canada, where there is a huge labour shortage in the province of Alberta due to the current oil boom). And this is likely to be the case for at least the next 5 years.

Anyone care to contradict me on this point?

Seems like no one else apart from Locrian have commented on my post above, specifically my claim that with a few exceptions already mentioned, there is not a single field out there with a shortage of workers in the US, and my claim that this situation will last for at least 5 years, if not more (based on the length of time it took for the US to recover from the Great Depression, the last time the US had experienced an economic crisis of the sheer magnitude as seen in 2008).

 

[ModusPwnd]

The field with a shortage of workers is the field where you work long hours for little pay, possibly doing dangerous work. When the US minimum wage gets you into the 90th percentile of humanity its hard to create (and justify) direct paths to the upper 90th percentile.

 

[porcupine137]

I buy it, when you see the stupidity going on in schools

Today on the local news, a Queensland State, Australia school has just announced that its banning kids from doing cartwheels and other things like that in the playground unless supervised by a qualified gym teacher/instructor

WTF ... a kid cannot even play games they have since time immemorial .. they will ban hopscotch next !

Dave

Yeah, it's a shame. I have a feeling that maybe the 80s were the last time kids got to be kids and grow and up and explore and be free and not over-protected by the nanny-state. Everything is pre-programmed.

 

[porcupine137]

Seems like no one else apart from Locrian have commented on my post above, specifically my claim that with a few exceptions already mentioned, there is not a single field out there with a shortage of workers in the US, and my claim that this situation will last for at least 5 years, if not more (based on the length of time it took for the US to recover from the Great Depression, the last time the US had experienced an economic crisis of the sheer magnitude as seen in 2008).

Probably because nobody can really disagree with your claim.

 

[JakeBrodskyPE]

Seems like no one else apart from Locrian have commented on my post above, specifically my claim that with a few exceptions already mentioned, there is not a single field out there with a shortage of workers in the US, and my claim that this situation will last for at least 5 years, if not more (based on the length of time it took for the US to recover from the Great Depression, the last time the US had experienced an economic crisis of the sheer magnitude as seen in 2008).

I prefer to quantify economic downturns in terms of drop as a percentage of peak GDP.

And yes, there have been economic downturns before, though this one happens to be one of the larger ones.

There have also been long terms where the economy went stagnant. I remember the stagflation of the 1970s with some dismay. Though I was a child, I do recall what happened to exchange rates because our family was living overseas.

Typically what happens during a period of time like that is that the economy reorganizes around newer technologies and gets busy re-tooling, training, and building. Those sorts of activities don't show much of a profit for a long time. And there are times when the technology or the push to develop that technology simply isn't there. So NOTHING happens. That's the infamous 1970s era when most of the development was overseas (Remember when Japan developed world class electronics and automobile businesses?).

Right now, the Federal Reserve sees lots people in the US sitting on "cash," waiting to do something with it. This is why the economy is in miserable shape. Nobody is ready to take risks on new things yet.

So against a backdrop like that, saying that there aren't enough STEM graduates... well, I think I see what they really want: They want some genius like the next Woz to develop a new industry so that these investors will have something to invest in. And they'd rather it happened in the US instead of in some other part of the world, because if that happens, they'll push the US so deep into a hole that we may be in it for generations before we climb out of it.

Just note that in the mid 1970s, Engineers and scientists were hung out to dry. There was a major program that went to a screeching halt known as the Apollo lunar missions. Overnight, tens of thousands of scientists and engineers lost their jobs. Many got disgusted and went looking for other careers instead of what they had dreamed of doing. Sound familiar? That's where we are today.

And in the middle of all that, we have business leaders saying that we need more STEM graduates. No, we're doing just fine. What we need are real ideas and real investment. And right now, there isn't a whole lot of either.

They're hoping that some nerds in a basement somewhere are making the Next Big Thing. The big problem is finding them, and then throwing lots of money in that direction. With luck, something magical will happen.

And you know what? It just might work. As long as we keep the worst of the nanny state laws from squelching their creativity...

 

[StatGuy2000]

The field with a shortage of workers is the field where you work long hours for little pay, possibly doing dangerous work. When the US minimum wage gets you into the 90th percentile of humanity its hard to create (and justify) direct paths to the upper 90th percentile.

First of all, if there was a genuine shortage of workers in such a field, then one of three things would happen:

(1) The firms in that particular field would raise their wages to attract such workers.

(2) The firms would relocate to another country where labour costs are much cheaper, if possible. (i.e. outsourcing)

(3) The firms would try to import workers who are willing to work for such low wages.

As far as I'm aware of, (1) has not happened. (2) has already occurred in many industries, and there may be practical limits for further outsourcing. (3) is currently constricted due to immigration restrictions.

 

[StatGuy2000]

I prefer to quantify economic downturns in terms of drop as a percentage of peak GDP.

And yes, there have been economic downturns before, though this one happens to be one of the larger ones.

There have also been long terms where the economy went stagnant. I remember the stagflation of the 1970s with some dismay. Though I was a child, I do recall what happened to exchange rates because our family was living overseas.

Typically what happens during a period of time like that is that the economy reorganizes around newer technologies and gets busy re-tooling, training, and building. Those sorts of activities don't show much of a profit for a long time. And there are times when the technology or the push to develop that technology simply isn't there. So NOTHING happens. That's the infamous 1970s era when most of the development was overseas (Remember when Japan developed world class electronics and automobile businesses?).

Right now, the Federal Reserve sees lots people in the US sitting on "cash," waiting to do something with it. This is why the economy is in miserable shape. Nobody is ready to take risks on new things yet.

So against a backdrop like that, saying that there aren't enough STEM graduates... well, I think I see what they really want: They want some genius like the next Woz to develop a new industry so that these investors will have something to invest in. And they'd rather it happened in the US instead of in some other part of the world, because if that happens, they'll push the US so deep into a hole that we may be in it for generations before we climb out of it.

Just note that in the mid 1970s, Engineers and scientists were hung out to dry. There was a major program that went to a screeching halt known as the Apollo lunar missions. Overnight, tens of thousands of scientists and engineers lost their jobs. Many got disgusted and went looking for other careers instead of what they had dreamed of doing. Sound familiar? That's where we are today.

And in the middle of all that, we have business leaders saying that we need more STEM graduates. No, we're doing just fine. What we need are real ideas and real investment. And right now, there isn't a whole lot of either.

They're hoping that some nerds in a basement somewhere are making the Next Big Thing. The big problem is finding them, and then throwing lots of money in that direction. With luck, something magical will happen.

And you know what? It just might work. As long as we keep the worst of the nanny state laws from squelching their creativity...

I agree with pretty much everything you say. One key question though is whether there the technology or the push to develop that technology that investors could see and truly invest in is actually present. Sure, there are lots of technological developments, both in the US and elsewhere, but whether those developments are at a stage where investors could foresee practical applications which they could put their money is unclear.

The other issue is whether that someone making the Next Big Thing can even be found in the US. And luck is a fickle thing to rely on.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Yeah, it's a shame. I have a feeling that maybe the 80s were the last time kids got to be kids and grow and up and explore and be free and not over-protected by the nanny-state. Everything is pre-programmed.

I don't really agree with your statement above, first of all, and the particular issue quoted by davenn is an isolated situation. I don't think kids today are really growing up that differently from the 80s, apart from having more gizmos to play with.

It's always easy for people to look back to the past in nostalgia, on how wonderful things were in the past, when in actual fact things were often not that much better.

 

[gmax137]

Yeah, it's a shame. I have a feeling that maybe the 80s were the last time kids got to be kids and grow and up and explore and be free and not over-protected by the nanny-state. Everything is pre-programmed.

Well I don't know if it is the "nanny state" or the parents, or both. But it seems the "protection" is a lot more than it was when I was growing up in the 1960s. I'd leave home in the morning and spend the day running in the woods, building tree houses and dams on the creek; or playing with matches and road flares in my buddy's father's shed (our "laboratory").

I don't really agree with your statement above, first of all, and the particular issue quoted by davenn is an isolated situation. I don't think kids today are really growing up that differently from the 80s, apart from having more gizmos to play with.

It's always easy for people to look back to the past in nostalgia, on how wonderful things were in the past, when in actual fact things were often not that much better.

I suppose you're right in that old timers always feel this way about the youth of the day. I guess my grandpa would have laughed at my activities, and thought "when I was twelve I snuck onto a ship in Hamburg bound for New York and never looked back..."

 

[ModusPwnd]

First of all, if there was a genuine shortage of workers in such a field, then one of three things would happen:

(1) The firms in that particular field would raise their wages to attract such workers.

(2) The firms would relocate to another country where labour costs are much cheaper, if possible. (i.e. outsourcing)

(3) The firms would try to import workers who are willing to work for such low wages.

As far as I'm aware of, (1) has not happened. (2) has already occurred in many industries, and there may be practical limits for further outsourcing. (3) is currently constricted due to immigration restrictions.

3 is also constricted due to minimum wage laws. Low wages are illegal in the US. The lowest you can pay somebody legally affords them over the 90th percentile of resource consumption. Environmentally sustainable wages (per capita) are illegal.

 

[porcupine137]

I don't really agree with your statement above, first of all, and the particular issue quoted by davenn is an isolated situation. I don't think kids today are really growing up that differently from the 80s, apart from having more gizmos to play with.

It's always easy for people to look back to the past in nostalgia, on how wonderful things were in the past, when in actual fact things were often not that much better.

Well how about this, how many kids come for trick-or-treat now? 3-5? or like 300-500?
All I see here now is pre-programmed activity that and pre-programmed that and special 'safe' arranged parking lot 'trick-or-treats' instead of throngs and throngs of kids running around all later afternoon, evening and late into night.

Or even buildling giant tree forts in the woods (with running electricity :) )?

The beach here used to be PACKED during the summer, now it's like 1/10th the crowd.

(And, while this might be a good thing, as it was flat out dangerous at times, but could you imagine Action Park! in Vernon Valley going on today?)

And did you ever hear about kids saying they felt burned out as they ENTERED college back then?

I mean, sure, the differences are not night and day, but I think there are differences.

 

[ParticleGrl]

(And, while this might be a good thing, as it was flat out dangerous at times, but could you imagine Action Park! in Vernon Valley going on today?)

It reopened this summer. Some of the rides are even the originals.

 

[mal4mac]

The beach here used to be PACKED during the summer, now it's like 1/10th the crowd.

Isn't that a good thing? Don't we want kids in the garage inventing stuff rather than at the beach? I'm reading a fascinating book, "Quiet" by Susan Cain, which highlights the problems quiet kids have with always being pushed to be social. They would rather be reading a book or programming their Raspberry Pi, but they are forced to go on play dates and other group activities. At school they are forced to work in a group when they would get on much better & faster on their own. In class they are encouraged to "speak up", never mind if the have anything to say or not. But they are discouraged from sitting quietly and thinking through a situation.

 

[porcupine137]

Isn't that a good thing? Don't we want kids in the garage inventing stuff rather than at the beach? I'm reading a fascinating book, "Quiet" by Susan Cain, which highlights the problems quiet kids have with always being pushed to be social. They would rather be reading a book or programming their Raspberry Pi, but they are forced to go on play dates and other group activities. At school they are forced to work in a group when they would get on much better & faster on their own. In class they are encouraged to "speak up", never mind if the have anything to say or not. But they are discouraged from sitting quietly and thinking through a situation.

I don't think it means they are all sitting in the garage inventing things. And what is wrong with kids having fun swimming and playing volleyball, racketball, etc.?? And you don't have to be social just to swim around and enjoy the water.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Well how about this, how many kids come for trick-or-treat now? 3-5? or like 300-500?

All I see here now is pre-programmed activity that and pre-programmed that and special 'safe' arranged parking lot 'trick-or-treats' instead of throngs and throngs of kids running around all later afternoon, evening and late into night.

I live in a condo now so kids are not allowed to enter for trick-or-treating. But I can tell you in the neighbourhood I live in, there are huge throngs of kids trick-or-treating.

Or even buildling giant tree forts in the woods (with running electricity :) )?

Even when I was growing up, building a giant tree fort in the woods was uncommon. So I don't get why this would be all that common today.

The beach here used to be PACKED during the summer, now it's like 1/10th the crowd.

(And, while this might be a good thing, as it was flat out dangerous at times, but could you imagine Action Park! in Vernon Valley going on today?)

At least where I'm located, whether the beaches are packed depended on the weather. In Toronto (where I live) the summer overall wasn't all that warm except for a few very hot days (like today), and with plenty of rain, so I suspect the beaches weren't that packed. But on days with great weather, I can tell you the beaches were packed with people.

And did you ever hear about kids saying they felt burned out as they ENTERED college back then?

Yes I did. But then again, I'm half-Japanese and when I was growing up, I've had a number of Asian-Canadian kids among my friends, some of whom had parents who strongly emphasize the important of education, sometimes to extremes -- think of the "dragon parent" stereotype. So my experience may be biased.

 

[mal4mac]

I don't think it means they are all sitting in the garage inventing things. And what is wrong with kids having fun swimming and playing volleyball, racketball, etc.?? And you don't have to be social just to swim around and enjoy the water.

Nothing wrong with it - different strokes for different folks. But kids shouldn't be forced to be extroverts, when they are introverts. Anyway, read the book I recommended to see the argument in full, if you've any time after all those sporting activities .

 

[porcupine137]

Nothing wrong with it - different strokes for different folks. But kids shouldn't be forced to be extroverts, when they are introverts. Anyway, read the book I recommended to see the argument in full, if you've any time after all those sporting activities .

I'm an introvert myself and I treasure all my times as a little kid down at the lake. You don't have to be a raging extrovert to enjoy stepping outside.