Is it Crazy to Start Studying Physics at 36?

[leroyjenkens]

I have never said that only "why" questions are physics. So don't twist my words. I was giving the specific example of "why mass doesn't matter". And of course, I realize that "why" questions are dangerous in physics. In this case, I was referring to giving some kind of explanation (either mathematics from Newtons axioms, or else) for why mass doesn't matter. Hence, that is why I put "why" between " ".

I'm not twisting words, I'm responding based on my interpretation of what you said. Even after reading your response, my interpretation is still reasonable. "Twisting words" sounds like a deliberate attempt to change your argument. Why would you think I'd do that?

An explanation for why mass doesn't matter in a projectile motion equation? I don't think a lot of physics students could give you a correct conceptual answer to that, other than "m" not appearing in the equation.

You still haven't responded to the multitude of physics concepts I listed that only require basic arithmetic.

 

[micromass]

You still haven't responded to the multitude of physics concepts I listed that only require basic arithmetic.

Well, obviously those topics involve some equations that only require basic arithmetic. But they are pretty useless on their own. You can't do many deep things with the equation, you can't derive the equations, you can't "prove" the equations, you can't compute many consequences, you can't apply it on situations other than elementary ones. As such, the equation on its own is useless. What isn't useless is the interrelation with the rest of physics. For that, you need mathematics.

 

[leroyjenkens]

Well, obviously those topics involve some equations that only require basic arithmetic. But they are pretty useless on their own. You can't do many deep things with the equation, you can't derive the equations, you can't "prove" the equations, you can't compute many consequences, you can't apply it on situations other than elementary ones. As such, the equation on its own is useless. What isn't useless is the interrelation with the rest of physics. For that, you need mathematics.

So you're not doing physics if you're doing physics on elementary cases? Elementary cases are abundant, and they're essentially all you go through during an average undergraduate physics degree.
I'm not arguing that math isn't required to do graduate level physics or the physics that physicists do.
What confounds me is that fans of physics will say physics is everything and ubiquitous, but when someone says they want to learn physics, suddenly it's esoteric.

 

[collinsmark]

Although mathematics is necessary to make precise predictions in classical, Newtonian mechanics, it might not be necessary to comprehend the predicted outcome. One the other hand, when dealing with modern physics (or even relativity), we can't even rely on our intuition for comprehension*. Without the mathematics, there's little to no hope of really understanding (at least not without just taking somebody else's word for it).

*(We can teach ourselves new "tricks" to gain a sort of new "learned" intuition, but that only goes so far.)

I've always liked Leonard Susskind's introduction to the subject, which can be seen in the first 7 to 9 minutes or so of this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Eeuqh9QfNI

 

[micromass]

We were talking about calculus, so

So you're not doing physics if you're doing physics on elementary cases? Elementary cases are abundant, and they're essentially all you go through during an average undergraduate physics degree.
I'm not arguing that math isn't required to do graduate level physics or the physics that physicists do

So you think calculus is not required for an undergrad physics degree because there are elementary cases enough to consider? Is this correct?

Also, I would love to see you handle elementary things like "motion with constant acceleration" without calculus. How will you handle it? Just give out the formulas and let them memorize it. I know that happens in algebra-based physics, but it's horrible.
Basically all you are suggesting is that you give out some formulas with essentially no justification and let them memorize it.

What confounds me is that fans of physics will say physics is everything and ubiquitous, but when someone says they want to learn physics, suddenly it's esoteric.

I wouldn't call calculus esoteric.

 

[leroyjenkens]

So you think calculus is not required for an undergrad physics degree because there are elementary cases enough to consider? Is this correct?

Depends on the class. Personally, I needed little calculus in quite a few of my physics classes. It seemed like a lot of the time we were just finding ways to avoid having to do calculus.

Also, I would love to see you handle elementary things like "motion with constant acceleration" without calculus. How will you handle it? Just give out the formulas and let them memorize it. I know that happens in algebra-based physics, but it's horrible.
Basically all you are suggesting is that you give out some formulas with essentially no justification and let them memorize it.

I'm not suggesting anything like that for someone who's studying for a degree in physics, or even just someone taking a single physics class as an elective. Getting a degree in physics is a far cry from someone who just wants to learn various physics principles, which is what I'm arguing either doesn't require math, or requires very little. Of course, you could learn the math and get a deeper understanding, but remember, my original point was that you're not excluded from learning physics without math. Everyone seemed to disagree, but no one seemed to want to provide counter-arguments to my arguments.

I wouldn't call calculus esoteric.

It is when you consider all the people who are actually interested in physics to some degree (everyone that I know), in comparison to the people who know calculus (definitely not everyone I know).

 

[kazzy]

My first uni physics class didn't require calculus (and barely needed algebra), though the prof didn't mind if people used it to solve problems. From this class, physics split into two streams, one algebra/trig based and the other calculus based. The algebra based one were geared toward arts majors who needed science credits and were interested in physics. The calculus based route led to theoretical physics and was geared towards engineers and science majors. I took both types of classes and found the algebra based classes gave me a more broad understanding of physics and it's history, but didn't really get into anything substantial.