Adit
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The discussion revolves around the limit of the function \(\frac{\sin x}{x}\) as \(x\) approaches zero, exploring various methods of evaluation including L'Hôpital's rule, geometric interpretations, and series definitions. Participants examine the implications of using L'Hôpital's rule in this context and its potential circularity, as well as alternative definitions of sine and cosine.
Participants express differing views on the appropriateness of using L'Hôpital's rule for evaluating the limit, with some asserting it is circular while others defend its use. There is no consensus on the best approach to take in this situation.
Participants highlight the potential circular reasoning involved in using L'Hôpital's rule to evaluate the limit, as well as the reliance on definitions and assumptions regarding sine and cosine. The discussion remains open to various interpretations and methods.
Adit said:View attachment 71628 In attachments, there is a pic of a page, I think there area of sector MOA should be 2π^2/x. Please tell me how this makes sense?
pat1enc3_17 said:I would solve this with L’Hospital's rule
\begin{align}
\frac{f(x)}{g(x)}:= \frac{sin(x)}{x}\qquad \text{ since}\quad g'(x)\neq 0,
\end{align}
it follows with L’Hospital's rule
\begin{align}
\lim_{x\rightarrow 0}\frac{f(x)}{g(x)}=\lim_{x\rightarrow 0}\frac{f'(x)}{g'(x)} =\lim_{x\rightarrow 0} \frac{cos(x)}{1}=1,
\end{align}
Usually, but not necessarily. There are other ways of defining "sine" and "cosine" that do not require a geometric way of getting the derivative of sin(x) and cos(x).gopher_p said:One usually uses the fact that ##\lim\limits_{x\rightarrow 0}\frac{\sin x}{x}=1## to establish ##\frac{d}{dx}\sin x=\cos x##. Using ##\frac{d}{dx}\sin x=\cos x## in the process of using l'Hopital's rule to show that ##\lim\limits_{x\rightarrow 0}\frac{\sin x}{x}=1## is a circular argument.
HallsofIvy said:Usually, but not necessarily. There are other ways of defining "sine" and "cosine" that do not require a geometric way of getting the derivative of sin(x) and cos(x).
For example, we can define sin(x) to be the power series
\sum_{n=0}^\infty \frac{x^{2n+1}}{(2n+1)!}
and define cos(x) to be the power series
\sum_{n=0}^\infty \frac{x^{2n}}{(2n)!}
Those series have infinite radius of convergent so converge uniformly on any finite interval and, in particular are differentiable "term by term" at any x. Differentiating the series for sin(x) term by term gives
\sum_{n= 0}^\infty\frac{(2n+1)x^{2n}}{(2n+1)!}= \sum_{n= 0}^\infty\frac{x^{2n}}{(2n)!}= cos(x).
Another way to define sine and cosine are as solutions to an 'initial value problem':
Define cos(x) to be the function, y(x), satisfying the differential equation y''= -y with the initial conditions y(0)= 1, y'(0)= 0,
Define sin(x) to be the function, y(x), satisfying the differential equation y''= -y with the initial conditions y(0)= 0, y'(0)= 1.
By the fundamental "existence and uniqueness" theorem for differential equations, there exist unique functions satisfying those. In particular, if y is the derivative of sine, if y(x)= (sin(x))' then y'(x)= (sin(x))''= -(sin(x)) so that y''(x)= -(sin(x))'= -y. That is, y(x)= (sin(x))' satisfies the same differential equation. Further, y(0)= (sin(x))' at 0 which is 1. y'(0)= -(sin(0))= 0. That is, the derivative of sin(x) is cos(x).