Is MATLAB's ode45 Suitable for Solving 2D Coupled Nonlinear ODEs?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the suitability of MATLAB's ode45 for solving a system of two coupled nonlinear ordinary differential equations (ODEs) related to the dynamics of a mass on a moving belt, including the effects of friction and wear. Participants explore the mathematical formulation, initial conditions, and potential modeling challenges.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the applicability of ode45 for the given equations and seeks alternative solvers if necessary.
  • Several participants inquire about the definitions and implications of terms such as μ(v_r) and (K 〖VB〗^2 y ̇/v).
  • It is suggested that the system may not be solvable due to the presence of two equations with four unknown functions, indicating a potential modeling issue.
  • Another participant proposes that providing initial conditions may simplify the problem, but emphasizes that these do not replace the need for additional relationships in the equations.
  • A suggestion is made to convert the second-order equations into first-order equations to facilitate the use of numerical methods.
  • One participant expresses that the difficulty may stem from physical modeling rather than purely mathematical issues, suggesting that clearer definitions and relationships are needed.
  • A participant shares a simplified model for friction and the conditions under which forces apply, aiming to clarify the problem further.
  • There is a consensus that numerical methods, particularly ode45, may be more appropriate than analytical solutions for this problem.
  • Concerns are raised about the need for an additional equation to relate VB to other variables in the model.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the mathematical modeling requires further clarification and that numerical methods like ode45 are likely suitable. However, there is no consensus on how to address the missing relationships or the implications of the variables involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in the current modeling, including the need for explicit relationships for variables like μ and VB, which are not sufficiently defined in the equations provided. The discussion highlights the complexity of nonlinear dynamics and the challenges of formulating a complete system of equations.

ams31
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Can anyone please suggest whether I can use MATLAB ode45 for the numerical solution of the following equations?

mx ̈+ c_x x ̇ + k_x x= F_x0+ μ(v_r ) (K 〖VB〗^2 y ̇/v) sgn(v_r )
my ̈+ c_y y ̇+ k_y y= F_y0+ (K 〖VB〗^2 (y/v) ̇ )
Where,
m, c_x, k_x, c_y, k_y, F_x0, F_y0, K, v are known constants.
v_r = x ̇- v
x ̈= (d^2 x)/(dt^2 ), x ̇= dx/dt and so on.

If not, is there any other solver in MATLAB which I can use?

Thanks
ams
 
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What is the meaning of μ(v_r ) ? and of (K 〖VB〗^2 y ̇/v) ?
 
JJacquelin said:
What is the meaning of μ(v_r ) ? and of (K 〖VB〗^2 y ̇/v) ?

μ(v_r ) is co-efficient of friction as a function of relative velocity.
K is a constant. 〖VB〗^2 is VB*VB and is a variable.
The whole thing can be expressed as: [K *VB*VB* (dy/dt)]/ v
 
μ(v_r ) is co-efficient of friction as a function of relative velocity.
K is a constant. 〖VB〗^2 is VB*VB and is a variable.
The whole thing can be expressed as: [K *VB*VB* (dy/dt)]/ v
So, both μ(v_r ) and 〖VB〗^2 are functions of t. Altogether, these two functions and the two others x(t) and y(t), we have four fonctions of t. Since there are two equations only, the system in not solvable (as far as two relationships are missing).
 
Ohhhhh... I have to solve them anyway...what if I provide x(0), y(0), dx(0)/dt & dy(0)/dt?
Any other way I can make the system bit simple?
 
what if I provide x(0), y(0), dx(0)/dt & dy(0)/dt?
What you propose in addition are boundary or initial conditions. They are not the missing relationships.
If the unknown functions are x(t) and y(t) and if there are only two equations, no other symbol, as μ and VB, must appear in the equations. Only known and explicite functions of x, y, and derivatives of x and y.
If μ appears in the two equations, a third equation or relationship has to be added. Not a symbolic as μ(v_r ), but an explicit formula.
If VB appears in the two equations, a fourth equation or relationship has to be added, which relates VB to x, y or known functions of x, y or derivatives.
If the added formulas or relationships are complicated, it would probably be impossible to anyliticaly solve the system of equations. Then, the only way would be numerical computation.
 
You need to convert each 2nd order equations into two first order equations.
That will give four first-order equations in four variables.

Call the variables as x, v_x, y, v_y. (v_x and v_y are the velocity components in the x and y directions).

Your second order equations then become first order equations;
m v_x' + c_x v_x + k_x x = whatever
m v_y' + c_y v_y + k_y y = whatever
And you have two more equations
x' = v_x
v' = v_y

If everything on the right hand side is a known function of x, v_x, y, v_y and t, that is all you need. If there is another indepedent variable you will need another equation. (I don't understand what you mean by "VB is a variable".)
 
I agree with AlephZero's comments. That's clear.
On my opinion, the difficulty encountered at the present state by Ams31 isn't mathematical but rather physical. May be the modeling isn't fully carried out and a clear and unambiguous mathematical wording isn't derived yet.
 
Thanks a lot JJacquelin and AlephZero.
You are right, apart from lack of clear cut modeling, I am still new to nonlinear stuff.
Let me elaborate the problem & I hope that may help you in helping me.
In simplified form, I am trying to model the vibration of a mass on moving belt along with the effects of forces and wear. VB is wear due to friction. I am using the following model for the friction.

µ if vr > 0
µ(vr) Fcontact-y sgn (vr) = 0 if vr = 0
- µ if vr < 0

Also, force appears only during the contact period. So,


[K*VB^2 *(dy/dt)]/ v for t1 + nTp ≤ t ≤ t2 +nTp n=0,1,2,3...
[K *VB^2* (dy/dt)]/ v =
0 otherwise

Tp = 2π/ω (ω is frequency of mass vibration)
t1 = Tp/4
t2 = 3t1
 
  • #10
I am attaching the figure of the simplified model here. Hope this will help.
 

Attachments

  • #11
Here is the better view of equations.
 

Attachments

  • #12
I think that you would receive more help on the Physics Forums than on the Mathematics Forums.
Analytical solving appears too harduous. Numerical methods are probably preferable. So, I think that the Physics Forums are more approriate.
 
  • #13
You shouldn't have any problems solving this with ODE45 in Matlab. Matlab calls your function and gives you some values of t, x, y, x' and y'. You just evaluate your formulas to calculate the corresponding values of dx/dy, dy/dt, dx'/dt and dy'/dt.

However in your PDF attachments, you say you have to "obtain the relationship between VB and time" but you don't have any equations to do that.

You need another equation that tells you how VB changes with respect to something (other than time) in the model. We can't help you include that in your Matlab model if we don't know what that equation is.
 

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