News Is Mitt Romney the Right Choice for the GOP in 2024?

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The discussion centers on Mitt Romney's viability as the GOP candidate for 2024, with mixed opinions on his candidacy. Some participants express skepticism about his character and ability to appeal to voters, particularly due to his past decisions, such as implementing universal health coverage in Massachusetts. Concerns are raised about the lack of strong alternatives within the GOP, with some suggesting that candidates like Jon Huntsman are overlooked. The conversation also touches on the need for a candidate who can effectively challenge the current administration while presenting a coherent policy plan. Overall, there is a sense of disappointment in the current GOP options and a desire for a candidate who embodies true fiscal conservatism and moderate social views.
  • #451
WhoWee said:
He said he thought drug testing Welfare recipients was a good idea - to make sure they aren't buying illegal drugs with their Government assistance. I didn't hear any mention of an expansion of Government.

Let me get this right, he wants to search people with no probable cause, only because they are receiving benefits from the government? Where will it end, suppossedly we all benefit from government, should we all expect a visit from a drug tester? I wonder what the point of an in/un before alienable is, if one can be alienated from it? If you don't want people to use government money to buy drugs, you don't take away their rights, you take away the money. There is no inalienable right to government handouts. One other thing, it is easy to pass a wiz quiz, a test would only cost us more and solve nothing. Government money already pays for drugs at a far higher scale for everything from boners, to smoking cessation.

The Republican belief, that we need to take away peoples freedom of choice in order to make them more free, is about as absurd as, we need to abandon the free market system inorder to save the free market system, imo.
 
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  • #452
Evo said:
I'm not liberal and I'm not a Democrat. I've been called conservative and a Republican, and I guess I often do lean a bit conservative if it makes sense. I'm really middle of the road and will vote for the candidate I think is less of a danger. I have no party affiliation. Sorry.

Everyone is in the middle of the road in their own eyes. As for me, I suppose I'm a secular humanist. And I'm using humanism in the artistic sense of a focus on humanity. In general, there really is no label I can identify with because I'm essentially a loner in politics. Conservatives generally call me liberal, and liberals generally call me conservative.

I have to be very careful here, but I'm an atheist. And I think politics is a sort of religion. People root for republicans and democrats as if they are at a ball game. Overall, our system of government makes it very difficult to assign blame. And I believe very few people really watch government closely enough to make a stab at assigning blame. In general, people vote based upon some kind of ideology instead of evidenced based thinking and reasoning.

At any rate, on the topic of op, I believe Mitt Romney will govern very similar to Obama.
 
  • #453
Unlike President Obama in the last election - Romney does have executive level leadership experience - 25 years in business, he saved the Olympics, and he served as Governor. Harry Reid and the Senate hasn't passed a budget in over 1,000 days and the last budget Predident Obama sent to Congress (I'll be gentle) didn't get many votes.

If possible, could you please provide your definition of "rhetoric pandering" - I want to apply it to the other threads?

The comparison between Obama 3.3 years ago and Mitt Romney is irrelevant. We have to compare the two in the present. I never viewed the Olympics as something worth saving and is really irrelevant and useless to progression, but that is just my opinion on the matter. 25 years in business? Doesn't matter as "business" is different from politics even if you believe they are alike, they aren't. His experience as governor is bad (not good) though, the 3 years he proclaimed himself to be a moderate, but now, in that CPAC video that was posted he says he wasn't a moderate? Lie much? Yes, just more of that rhetoric pandering the ol' Mitt does.

Definition, or at least why I use "rhetoric pandering": He over-exaggerates his positions, consistently flip-flops, and outright lies just to appease his base. That, to me, is a prime example of rhetoric pandering.

I have to be very careful here, but I'm an atheist. And I think politics is a sort of religion.

Politics is a new sport in today's world. Almost like chess in a way where everyone participates in the game to beat the current king and replace him with a new king. Nothing changes but it still keeps us in our boxes and seeing as I've reached the limit on conspiracy-based, vitriolic (as people think it but I don't believe they are grating) words, I won't go down that road here.
 
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  • #454
phoenix:\\ said:
Definition, or at least why I use "rhetoric pandering": He over-exaggerates his positions, consistently flip-flops, and outright lies just to appease his base. That, to me, is a prime example of rhetoric pandering.

I think you might've posted in the wrong place - this thread is about Romney.
 
  • #455
Lol, you sly fox, but just watch that CPAC video and compare it to his campaign for governor. I will be the first to tell you, you will be floored from laughter. It is like he regressed even though his governorship regressed as he went along and his approval rating plummeted close to Nixon even with the Watergate incident.
 
  • #456
Jasongreat said:
Let me get this right, he wants to search people with no probable cause, only because they are receiving benefits from the government? Where will it end, suppossedly we all benefit from government, should we all expect a visit from a drug tester?
There is no such legal quandry: welfare is voluntary.
 
  • #457
russ_watters said:
There is no such legal quandry: welfare is voluntary.
You lost me on that one. Are you saying that search without probable cause is OK because welfare is voluntary?
 
  • #458
Jimmy Snyder said:
You lost me on that one. Are you saying that search without probable cause is OK because welfare is voluntary?

Search without probable cause in a particular context is certainly OK.

If not, airport security procedures or workplace random drug tests are equally "not OK".
 
  • #459
And the voluntary nature of the context is the criterion used to decide if the search is OK?
 
  • #460
Jimmy Snyder said:
And the voluntary nature of the context is the criterion used to decide if the search is OK?

The state can suspend your drivers license if you operate under the influence - even place a device on your car to test you before the ignition switch will operate. In both cases - the state requires you to qualify - then issues the privelage or benefit subject to continued qualification - violation of the rules equals loss or suspension of privelage or benefit.
 
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  • #461
WhoWee said:
The state can suspend your drivers license if you operate under the influence - even place a device on your car to test you before the ignition switch will operate. In both cases - the state requires you to qualify - then issues the privelage or benefit subject to continued qualification - violation of the rules equals loss or suspension of privelage or benefit.
And the reason that such searches are allowed is because driving is voluntary? I live in a house, but I don't have to. I could live in an apartment. Does the voluntary nature of the context negate the protection against searches. No wait, I don't live in a house, I live in an apartment. But it's still voluntary. I could live in a house.
 
  • #462
Jimmy Snyder said:
And the reason that such searches are allowed is because driving is voluntary? I live in a house, but I don't have to. I could live in an apartment. Does the voluntary nature of the context negate the protection against searches. No wait, I don't live in a house, I live in an apartment. But it's still voluntary. I could live in a house.

Is the Government subsidizing your rent or mortgage - if so - your participation would be voluntary.
 
  • #463
WhoWee said:
Is the Government subsidizing your rent or mortgage - if so - your participation would be voluntary.
The very fact that I live in a house is voluntary. I could live in an apartment. The very fact that I live in an apartment is voluntary, I could live in a house. The fact that I am walking down the street is voluntary, I could run, I could use a different street. These acts all have a voluntary nature to them.

Does the fact that an action is voluntary in and of itself negate the protection against searches?
 
  • #464
Jimmy Snyder said:
The very fact that I live in a house is voluntary. I could live in an apartment. The very fact that I live in an apartment is voluntary, I could live in a house. The fact that I am walking down the street is voluntary, I could run, I could use a different street. These acts all have a voluntary nature to them.

Does the fact that an action is voluntary in and of itself negate the protection against searches?

If the Government pays for you to live there - it is reasonable they could take it away if you break the law.
 
  • #465
WhoWee said:
If the Government pays for you to live there - it is reasonable they could take it away if you break the law.
Does the fact that an action is voluntary in and of itself negate the protection against searches?
 
  • #466
Jimmy Snyder said:
The very fact that I live in a house is voluntary. I could live in an apartment. The very fact that I live in an apartment is voluntary, I could live in a house. The fact that I am walking down the street is voluntary, I could run, I could use a different street. These acts all have a voluntary nature to them.

Does the fact that an action is voluntary in and of itself negate the protection against searches?
You're completely missing what is "voluntary". If the government program you are participating in is voluntary, they can attach conditions to it (see: driving). Choosing to live in a house instead of an apartment is not a government program.

Note though that walking down the street is a different issue entirely. Since it is an act done in public, there are certain privacy issues you voluntarily waive by doing it.
Does the fact that an action is voluntary in and of itself negate the protection against searches?
That's a "not even wrong" question. It implies that the search itself is not voluntary. It is voluntary.
 
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  • #468
phoenix:\\ said:
What do we judge him by then? That is if we cannot judge him on rhetoric that is meant to pander to his base, then what else is there to judge him by? His record, his wants, etc...? As far as it being "rhetoric pandering", that sort of policy is in direct conflict with his base of limiting the government. My dirty pants are clean...
We judge him by what he says and does. The way I was thinking of and using the term "rhetorical pandering" might not be the most correct. I'm not sure what Romney's base includes (other than Mormons, the financial sector, big business, and the wealthy), but I think that some of his statements are designed to appeal to some base or other that he might not actually be aligned with. Just like, imo, most politicians do (including Obama) from time to time.

I don't know if Romney actually intends to implement drug testing for recipients of temporary cash welfare. It doesn't seem to me to be an important consideration or one that would actually be implemented, but Romney's statements in favor of it might get him some points with the portion of Americans who aren't particularly fond of government welfare (especially cash assistance) or proposals regarding the legalization/decriminalization of drugs, but who might be considered to be outside what seems to me to be his obvious base of support.
 
  • #469
ThomasT said:
We judge him by what he says and does. The way I was thinking of and using the term "rhetorical pandering" might not be the most correct. I'm not sure what Romney's base includes (other than Mormons, the financial sector, big business, and the wealthy), but I think that some of his statements are designed to appeal to some base or other that he might not actually be aligned with. Just like, imo, most politicians do (including Obama) from time to time.

I don't know if Romney actually intends to implement drug testing for recipients of temporary cash welfare. It doesn't seem to me to be an important consideration or one that would actually be implemented, but Romney's statements in favor of it might get him some points with the portion of Americans who aren't particularly fond of government welfare (especially cash assistance) or proposals regarding the legalization/decriminalization of drugs, but who might be considered to be outside what seems to me to be his obvious base of support.

I'm a bit confused - isn't Romney supposed to be too moderate for the Conservatives in the Republican Party?
 
  • #470
Jasongreat said:
If you don't want people to use government money to buy drugs, you don't take away their rights, you take away the money.
Imo, it's perfectly fair and not a breach of rights to require people getting free money from the government to test clean for illegal drugs. But it's such a relatively small possible problem that I have to conclude that Romney only made the statements he did about it in order to appeal to a certain portion of the voting public, and not because he would actually do that if elected.
 
  • #471
WhoWee said:
I'm a bit confused - isn't Romney supposed to be too moderate for the Conservatives in the Republican Party?
That's what I read. What is it that you're confused about?
 
  • #472
ThomasT said:
That's what I read. What is it that you're confused about?

I'm reading it as Romney's base is moderates and independents - the vast majority of Americans that want accountability in Washington - (I) could be wrong?
 
  • #473
WhoWee said:
I'm reading it as Romney's base is moderates and independents - the vast majority of Americans that want accountability in Washington - (I) could be wrong?
I see.
 
  • #474
WhoWee said:
If the Government pays for you to live there - it is reasonable they could take it away if you break the law.

Yes, but mandatory drug searches have an implied presumption of guilt, or at the very least reasonable suspicion.
 
  • #475
daveb said:
Yes, but mandatory drug searches have an implied presumption of guilt, or at the very least reasonable suspicion.

We have another thread for this. However, if you know you'll lose your Government assistance if you test positive for drugs - you need to decide which is more important - the Government money or the drugs?
 
  • #476
WhoWee said:
I'm reading it as Romney's base is moderates and independents - the vast majority of Americans that want accountability in Washington - (I) could be wrong?

I'm not sure what Romney's base is, since he's in the Republican Primary. I know he's trying to appeal to the Conservative base of the Republicans, just as primary candidates for a Democratic primary try to appeal to the liberal base of the Democratic party. It seems a no-win situation for at least half (:-p) of the candidates in the general election since then they have to appeal to the middle ground. Essentially, it seems that whoever dodges the flip-flopping they make from primary to general election ends up the winner.
 
  • #477
daveb said:
I'm not sure what Romney's base is, since he's in the Republican Primary. I know he's trying to appeal to the Conservative base of the Republicans, just as primary candidates for a Democratic primary try to appeal to the liberal base of the Democratic party. It seems a no-win situation for at least half (:-p) of the candidates in the general election since then they have to appeal to the middle ground. Essentially, it seems that whoever dodges the flip-flopping they make from primary to general election ends up the winner.

I think Romney is wise to keep his focus on President Obama - this appeals to all Republicans.
 
  • #478
russ_watters said:
You're completely missing what is "voluntary". If the government program you are participating in is voluntary, they can attach conditions to it (see: driving). Choosing to live in a house instead of an apartment is not a government program.

Note though that walking down the street is a different issue entirely. Since it is an act done in public, there are certain privacy issues you voluntarily waive by doing it. That's a "not even wrong" question. It implies that the search itself is not voluntary. It is voluntary.

I disagree with the driving comment, the USC has said in numerous cases that the right to travel shall not be infringed. Government officials make us believe it is voluntary, but can you name one contract a sixteen year old is capable of signing that is binding? Besides giving up their rights to the fourth and fifth ammendments? According to the constitution I have read, our rights are unalieanable. What does that word mean? Is it that if we can make a case they should be alienated from you they can be? Or does unalieanable mean that even we can not give up those rights? Those two distinctions seem in contradiction, so which is it? We have unalienable rights that can be we can be alienated from, or unalienable means unalienable?

I will ask you the same question I asked WhoWee on another thread, is there any rights we can't be alienated from? There are ten in the bill of rights, are all alienable with the 'proper' disqualifications? If so what is the purpose of the bill of rights?
 
  • #479
Jasongreat said:
I disagree with the driving comment, the USC has said in numerous cases that the right to travel shall not be infringed. Government officials make us believe it is voluntary, but can you name one contract a sixteen year old is capable of signing that is binding? Besides giving up their rights to the fourth and fifth ammendments? According to the constitution I have read, our rights are unalieanable. What does that word mean? Is it that if we can make a case they should be alienated from you they can be? Or does unalieanable mean that even we can not give up those rights? Those two distinctions seem in contradiction, so which is it? We have unalienable rights that can be we can be alienated from, or unalienable means unalienable?

I will ask you the same question I asked WhoWee on another thread, is there any rights we can't be alienated from? There are ten in the bill of rights, are all alienable with the 'proper' disqualifications? If so what is the purpose of the bill of rights?

You have the right to travel. You don't have the right to take a car along.
 
  • #480
Char. Limit said:
You have the right to travel. You don't have the right to take a car along.

Will you please give sources for this statement, the USC has said otherwise. The only time my travel can be restricted, according to the USC, is because I am making money, or a commercial driver. Why is it cars are different? Could not a horse be an danger to citizens? could not a horse and buggy be a danger to citizens? Heck, could not my walking be a danger? Why do you think government has the right to resrtict my travel when it comes to cars? Here are some cases to get you started:

DESPITE ACTIONS OF POLICE AND LOCAL COURTS, HIGHER COURTS HAVE RULED THAT AMERICAN CITIZENS HAVE A RIGHT TO TRAVEL WITHOUT STATE PERMITS.

For years professionals within the criminal justice system have acted on the belief that traveling by motor vehicle was a privilege that was given to a citizen only after approval by their state government in the form of a permit or license to drive. In other words, the individual must be granted the privilege before his use of the state highways was considered legal. Legislators, police officers, and court officials are becoming aware that there are court decisions that disprove the belief that driving is a privilege and therefore requires government approval in the form of a license. Presented here are some of these cases:

CASE #1: “The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived.” Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago, 169 NE 221.

CASE #2: “The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579. It could not be stated more directly or conclusively that citizens of the states have a common law right to travel, without approval or restriction (license), and that this right is protected under the U.S Constitution.

CASE #3: “The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment.” Kent v. Dulles, 357 US 116, 125.

CASE #4: “The right to travel is a well-established common right that does not owe its existence to the federal government. It is recognized by the courts as a natural right.” Schactman v. Dulles 96 App DC 287, 225 F2d 938, at 941.

As hard as it is for those of us in law enforcement to believe, there is no room for speculation in these court decisions. American citizens do indeed have the inalienable right to use the roadways unrestricted in any manner as long as they are not damaging or violating property or rights of others. Government—in requiring the people to obtain drivers licenses, and accepting vehicle inspections and DUI/DWI roadblocks without question—is restricting, and therefore violating, the people’s common law right to travel.

Is this a new legal interpretation on this subject? Apparently not. This means that the beliefs and opinions our state legislators, the courts, and those in law enforcement have acted upon for years have been in error. Researchers armed with actual facts state that case law is overwhelming in determining that to restrict the movement of the individual in the free exercise of his right to travel is a serious breach of those freedoms secured by the U.S. Constitution and most state constitutions. That means it is unlawful. The revelation that the American citizen has always had the inalienable right to travel raises profound questions for those who are involved in making and enforcing state laws. The first of such questions may very well be this: If the states have been enforcing laws that are unconstitutional on their face, it would seem that there must be some way that a state can legally put restrictions—such as licensing requirements, mandatory insurance, vehicle registration, vehicle inspections to name just a few—on a citizen’s constitutionally protected rights. Is that so?

For the answer, let us look, once again, to the U.S. courts for a determination of this very issue. In Hertado v. California, 110 US 516, the U.S Supreme Court states very plainly:

“The state cannot diminish rights of the people.”
And in Bennett v. Boggs, 1 Baldw 60,

“Statutes that violate the plain and obvious principles of common right and common reason are null and void.”
Would we not say that these judicial decisions are straight to the point—that there is no lawful method for government to put restrictions or limitations on rights belonging to the people? Other cases are even more straight forward:

“The assertion of federal rights, when plainly and reasonably made, is not to be defeated under the name of local practice.”

Davis v. Wechsler, 263 US 22, at 24

“Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.” Miranda v. Arizona, 384 US 436, 491.

“The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.” Miller v. US, 230 F 486, at 489.
There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of this exercise of constitutional rights.” Sherer v. Cullen, 481 F 946

We could go on, quoting court decision after court decision; however, the Constitution itself answers our question – Can a government legally put restrictions on the rights of the American people at anytime, for any reason? The answer is found in Article Six of the U.S. Constitution:

“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof;...shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or laws of any State to the Contrary not one word withstanding.” In the same Article, it says just who within our government that is bound by this Supreme Law:

“The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution…”
 
  • #481
WhoWee said:
I think Romney is wise to keep his focus on President Obama - this appeals to all Republicans.

I think Ronmey focusing on Romneycare would quiet all republicans, however I can see that it doesn't appeal to Republicans.
 
  • #482
Jasongreat said:
Will you please give sources for this statement, the USC has said otherwise. The only time my travel can be restricted, according to the USC, is because I am making money, or a commercial driver. Why is it cars are different? Could not a horse be an danger to citizens? could not a horse and buggy be a danger to citizens? Heck, could not my walking be a danger? Why do you think government has the right to resrtict my travel when it comes to cars? Here are some cases to get you started:

DESPITE ACTIONS OF POLICE AND LOCAL COURTS, HIGHER COURTS HAVE RULED THAT AMERICAN CITIZENS HAVE A RIGHT TO TRAVEL WITHOUT STATE PERMITS.

For years professionals within the criminal justice system have acted on the belief that traveling by motor vehicle was a privilege that was given to a citizen only after approval by their state government in the form of a permit or license to drive. In other words, the individual must be granted the privilege before his use of the state highways was considered legal. Legislators, police officers, and court officials are becoming aware that there are court decisions that disprove the belief that driving is a privilege and therefore requires government approval in the form of a license. Presented here are some of these cases:

CASE #1: “The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived.” Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago, 169 NE 221.

CASE #2: “The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579. It could not be stated more directly or conclusively that citizens of the states have a common law right to travel, without approval or restriction (license), and that this right is protected under the U.S Constitution.

CASE #3: “The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment.” Kent v. Dulles, 357 US 116, 125.

CASE #4: “The right to travel is a well-established common right that does not owe its existence to the federal government. It is recognized by the courts as a natural right.” Schactman v. Dulles 96 App DC 287, 225 F2d 938, at 941.

As hard as it is for those of us in law enforcement to believe, there is no room for speculation in these court decisions. American citizens do indeed have the inalienable right to use the roadways unrestricted in any manner as long as they are not damaging or violating property or rights of others. Government—in requiring the people to obtain drivers licenses, and accepting vehicle inspections and DUI/DWI roadblocks without question—is restricting, and therefore violating, the people’s common law right to travel.

Is this a new legal interpretation on this subject? Apparently not. This means that the beliefs and opinions our state legislators, the courts, and those in law enforcement have acted upon for years have been in error. Researchers armed with actual facts state that case law is overwhelming in determining that to restrict the movement of the individual in the free exercise of his right to travel is a serious breach of those freedoms secured by the U.S. Constitution and most state constitutions. That means it is unlawful. The revelation that the American citizen has always had the inalienable right to travel raises profound questions for those who are involved in making and enforcing state laws. The first of such questions may very well be this: If the states have been enforcing laws that are unconstitutional on their face, it would seem that there must be some way that a state can legally put restrictions—such as licensing requirements, mandatory insurance, vehicle registration, vehicle inspections to name just a few—on a citizen’s constitutionally protected rights. Is that so?

For the answer, let us look, once again, to the U.S. courts for a determination of this very issue. In Hertado v. California, 110 US 516, the U.S Supreme Court states very plainly:

“The state cannot diminish rights of the people.”
And in Bennett v. Boggs, 1 Baldw 60,

“Statutes that violate the plain and obvious principles of common right and common reason are null and void.”
Would we not say that these judicial decisions are straight to the point—that there is no lawful method for government to put restrictions or limitations on rights belonging to the people? Other cases are even more straight forward:

“The assertion of federal rights, when plainly and reasonably made, is not to be defeated under the name of local practice.”

Davis v. Wechsler, 263 US 22, at 24

“Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.” Miranda v. Arizona, 384 US 436, 491.

“The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.” Miller v. US, 230 F 486, at 489.
There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of this exercise of constitutional rights.” Sherer v. Cullen, 481 F 946

We could go on, quoting court decision after court decision; however, the Constitution itself answers our question – Can a government legally put restrictions on the rights of the American people at anytime, for any reason? The answer is found in Article Six of the U.S. Constitution:

“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof;...shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or laws of any State to the Contrary not one word withstanding.” In the same Article, it says just who within our government that is bound by this Supreme Law:

“The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution…”

Fascinating stuff...I'm going to have to look into this a tad more.
 
  • #483
Does that mean I do not need an inspection this year?
 
  • #484
JasonGreat said:
According to the constitution I have read, our rights are unalieanable.

Then perhaps you should read the US constitution, which doesn't mention inalienable or unalienable rights, or natural rights, etc. Maybe you are thinking of the Declaration of Independence, which isn't a legal document.
 
  • #485
Jasongreat said:
Will you please give sources for this statement, the USC has said otherwise. The only time my travel can be restricted, according to the USC, is because I am making money, or a commercial driver. Why is it cars are different? Could not a horse be an danger to citizens? could not a horse and buggy be a danger to citizens? Heck, could not my walking be a danger? Why do you think government has the right to resrtict my travel when it comes to cars? Here are some cases to get you started:

DESPITE ACTIONS OF POLICE AND LOCAL COURTS, HIGHER COURTS HAVE RULED THAT AMERICAN CITIZENS HAVE A RIGHT TO TRAVEL WITHOUT STATE PERMITS.

For years professionals within the criminal justice system have acted on the belief that traveling by motor vehicle was a privilege that was given to a citizen only after approval by their state government in the form of a permit or license to drive. In other words, the individual must be granted the privilege before his use of the state highways was considered legal. Legislators, police officers, and court officials are becoming aware that there are court decisions that disprove the belief that driving is a privilege and therefore requires government approval in the form of a license. Presented here are some of these cases:

CASE #1: “The use of the highway for the purpose of travel and transportation is not a mere privilege, but a common fundamental right of which the public and individuals cannot rightfully be deprived.” Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago, 169 NE 221.

CASE #2: “The right of the citizen to travel upon the public highways and to transport his property thereon, either by carriage or by automobile, is not a mere privilege which a city may prohibit or permit at will, but a common law right which he has under the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Thompson v. Smith, 154 SE 579. It could not be stated more directly or conclusively that citizens of the states have a common law right to travel, without approval or restriction (license), and that this right is protected under the U.S Constitution.

CASE #3: “The right to travel is a part of the liberty of which the citizen cannot be deprived without due process of law under the Fifth Amendment.” Kent v. Dulles, 357 US 116, 125.

CASE #4: “The right to travel is a well-established common right that does not owe its existence to the federal government. It is recognized by the courts as a natural right.” Schactman v. Dulles 96 App DC 287, 225 F2d 938, at 941.

As hard as it is for those of us in law enforcement to believe, there is no room for speculation in these court decisions. American citizens do indeed have the inalienable right to use the roadways unrestricted in any manner as long as they are not damaging or violating property or rights of others. Government—in requiring the people to obtain drivers licenses, and accepting vehicle inspections and DUI/DWI roadblocks without question—is restricting, and therefore violating, the people’s common law right to travel.

Is this a new legal interpretation on this subject? Apparently not. This means that the beliefs and opinions our state legislators, the courts, and those in law enforcement have acted upon for years have been in error. Researchers armed with actual facts state that case law is overwhelming in determining that to restrict the movement of the individual in the free exercise of his right to travel is a serious breach of those freedoms secured by the U.S. Constitution and most state constitutions. That means it is unlawful. The revelation that the American citizen has always had the inalienable right to travel raises profound questions for those who are involved in making and enforcing state laws. The first of such questions may very well be this: If the states have been enforcing laws that are unconstitutional on their face, it would seem that there must be some way that a state can legally put restrictions—such as licensing requirements, mandatory insurance, vehicle registration, vehicle inspections to name just a few—on a citizen’s constitutionally protected rights. Is that so?

For the answer, let us look, once again, to the U.S. courts for a determination of this very issue. In Hertado v. California, 110 US 516, the U.S Supreme Court states very plainly:

“The state cannot diminish rights of the people.”
And in Bennett v. Boggs, 1 Baldw 60,

“Statutes that violate the plain and obvious principles of common right and common reason are null and void.”
Would we not say that these judicial decisions are straight to the point—that there is no lawful method for government to put restrictions or limitations on rights belonging to the people? Other cases are even more straight forward:

“The assertion of federal rights, when plainly and reasonably made, is not to be defeated under the name of local practice.”

Davis v. Wechsler, 263 US 22, at 24

“Where rights secured by the Constitution are involved, there can be no rule making or legislation which would abrogate them.” Miranda v. Arizona, 384 US 436, 491.

“The claim and exercise of a constitutional right cannot be converted into a crime.” Miller v. US, 230 F 486, at 489.
There can be no sanction or penalty imposed upon one because of this exercise of constitutional rights.” Sherer v. Cullen, 481 F 946

We could go on, quoting court decision after court decision; however, the Constitution itself answers our question – Can a government legally put restrictions on the rights of the American people at anytime, for any reason? The answer is found in Article Six of the U.S. Constitution:

“This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof;...shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or laws of any State to the Contrary not one word withstanding.” In the same Article, it says just who within our government that is bound by this Supreme Law:

“The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution…”


This was more convincing before I realized that you just copy/pasted this from another website. I tried finding some of these cases to confirm what they say but I just get tons of websites citing the exact same quotes with no additional information. Do you know where the original opinions/rulings can be found?
 
  • #486
I just read the fist paragraph of your quote, and I the main thing that struck me (assuming that US and UK motoring law are vaguely similar) is that it may well be correct, but irrelevant.

In the UK there is no legal restriction on anybody of any age driving any vehicle almost anywhere they want. The restrictions are about driving vehicles on public highways.

"Public highways" are legally defined very precisely in the UK. Indeed there have been court cases where a local highways department redesigned a road junction by adding a one-way slip road, somebody was been prosecuted for driving the wrong way down it. and they were acquitted because the council had forgotten to go through the correct legal process to register the new bit of tarmac as a public highway. Of course those loopholes get fixed rather fast, once they have been discovered!
 
  • #487
Office_Shredder said:
This was more convincing before I realized that you just copy/pasted this from another website. I tried finding some of these cases to confirm what they say but I just get tons of websites citing the exact same quotes with no additional information. Do you know where the original opinions/rulings can be found?

Go to Cornell law(one place, or just go to the USC website), enter the citations listed, and then read the court cases. Sometimes it takes more than google to find facts, even today. :)

Edit: I tried a few to make sure and even just relying on google, if you enter the citation you get the court cases. But findlaw, cornell law, and USC sites are the best choices, IMO.
 
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  • #488
AlephZero said:
I just read the fist paragraph of your quote, and I the main thing that struck me (assuming that US and UK motoring law are vaguely similar) is that it may well be correct, but irrelevant.

In the UK there is no legal restriction on anybody of any age driving any vehicle almost anywhere they want. The restrictions are about driving vehicles on public highways.

"Public highways" are legally defined very precisely in the UK. Indeed there have been court cases where a local highways department redesigned a road junction by adding a one-way slip road, somebody was been prosecuted for driving the wrong way down it. and they were acquitted because the council had forgotten to go through the correct legal process to register the new bit of tarmac as a public highway. Of course those loopholes get fixed rather fast, once they have been discovered!


If the UK is anything like the US, just because the government says it should be and teaches that in public schools, doesn't make it so, but I do realize our constutuion is more set in stone(or atleast it was) than the UK version. Wasnt that one of the reasons our founders split? They felt like their rights, as englishmen under common law, were being abused. I have no problem with the laws in the UK, because I don't live under them, it is up to you to and your fellow countrymen to decide. If you like the laws in your country, please don't take my assertions as a negative, that is your government not mine.

But anyway, I feel like this discussion fits better in Ron Pauls thread, Romney I don't think has any idea of the true history of the US, he was an ivy league graduate afterall. IMO, they all seem pretty progressive, see Bill O'reilly, the Bushes, Obama just to mention recent history. The only reason I went down this path is RussWaters brought up driving restrictions to make his point, a point I disagree with emphaticaly if you haven't noticed. :)

Romney, could if he wanted, make the government more efficient, he does like to destroy inefficient companies. But to think he would rule as a consevative, in the classical liberal view is preposterous, he was taught all the wrong beliefs of the US, not saying he couldn't change, I just don't think he has, yet. All the others, save paul, are far more big government though, so my choice is Romney/Paul or Paul/Romney I prefer the latter for eight years, then a newly educated Romney/whoever for the next eight. At least that's my opinion.
 
  • #489
russ_watters said:
It is commonly believed due to constant hammering of the issue from liberal politicians, but it is very wrong. The data can be found here: http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/income/data/historical/household/

The most relevant table is the mean household income of each fifth of the population. Even without adjusting for cyclic trends, the average income of the people in the bottom 20% is 21% higher (inflation adjusted) today than in 1967 when the data started to be collected. For the next two fifths the increases are 13% and 22%.

Most such data are meaningless anyway as we are talking about income quintiles, not fixed classes of people. Abstract statistical measures such as "the mean household income" for this or that "fifth" of the population tells us nothing about the actual human beings in our society over time, who move into and out of these quintiles.
 
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  • #490
As Romney continues to battle for the GOP nomination - the reluctance of the Right to embrace him should be a good sign and helping him with Moderates and Independents - shouldn't it?
 
  • #491
Jasongreat said:
Go to Cornell law(one place, or just go to the USC website), enter the citations listed, and then read the court cases. Sometimes it takes more than google to find facts, even today. :)

Edit: I tried a few to make sure and even just relying on google, if you enter the citation you get the court cases. But findlaw, cornell law, and USC sites are the best choices, IMO.

When I try to google them I just get the same schpiel posted on about 2000 other websites as my top hits.

Cases #3 and #4 that are cited are cases about the Secretary of State denying passports to citizens of the United States when Congress required anybody leaving the country to have a passport, and the ruling simply states that the government cannot restrict the right to travel to foreign countries with impunity. It has nothing to do with whether driving on a road explicitly is a right or a privilege

On the other hand we have court cases like
http://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=8317960360812670712&hl=en&as_sdt=2,23&as_vis=1

a supreme court ruling about someone whose drivers license was suspended, so very directly related to the question of whether drivers licensing can legally restrict a right to drive on roads

The use of the public highways by motor vehicles, with its consequent dangers, renders the reasonableness and necessity of regulation apparent. The universal practice is to register ownership of automobiles and to license their drivers. Any appropriate means adopted by the states to insure competence and care on the part of its licensees and to protect others using the highway is consonant with due process.

This ruling came 10 years after Thompson v. Smith, which the quote from is missing a key component (coming immediately after the quoted section in your post) (parts bolded by me)

. It includes the right in so doing to use the ordinary and usual conveyances of the day; and under the existing modes of travel includes the right to drive a horse-drawn carriage or wagon thereon, or to operate an automobile thereon, for the usual and ordinary purposes of life and business. It is not a mere privilege, like the privilege of moving a house in the street, operating a business stand in the street, or transporting persons or property for hire along the street, which a city may permit or prohibit at will.

The exercise of such a common right the city may, under its police power, regulate in the interest of the public safety and welfare; but it may not arbitrarily or unreasonably prohibit or restrict it, nor may it permit one to exercise it and refuse to permit another of like qualifications, 378*378 under like conditions and circumstances, to exercise it. Taylor Smith, 140 Va. 217, 124 S.E. 259; Ex parte Dickey, 76 W.Va. 576, 85 S.E. 781, L.R.A. 1915-F, 840; Hadfield Lundin, 98 Wash. 657, 168 Pac. 516, L.R.A. 1918-B, 909, Ann. Cas. 1918-C, 942.

[7, 8]The regulation of the exercise of the right to drive a private automobile on the streets of the city may be accomplished in part by the city by granting, refusing, and revoking, under rules of general application, permits to drive an automobile on its streets; but such permits may not be arbitrarily refused or revoked, or permitted to be held by some and refused to other of like qualifications, under like circumstances and conditions.

In short, that drivers licenses are OK.

I was unable to find the Chicago Motor Coach v. Chicago case, but was able to find this debunking of the citation
http://www.andrewtobias.com/bkoldcolumns/980723.html
 
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  • #492
WhoWee said:
As Romney continues to battle for the GOP nomination - the reluctance of the Right to embrace him should be a good sign and helping him with Moderates and Independents - shouldn't it?

It seems you're thinking as a Republican by assuming Independents only have two choices - Romney or Santorum. But Independents are, well, independent.

independents.png


http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/independent-voters-on-the-run-from-romney-chart.php
 
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  • #493
lisab said:
It seems you're thinking as a Republican by assuming Independents only have two choices - Romney or Santorum. But Independents are, well, independent.

independents.png


http://2012.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/02/independent-voters-on-the-run-from-romney-chart.php

What makes you think I'm a Republican?
 
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  • #494
WhoWee said:
What makes you think I'm a Republican?

Because I caught you thinking like a Republican!
 
  • #495
lisab said:
Because I caught you thinking like a Republican!
If it walks like a duck, and talks like a duck...

It doesn't matter what it calls itself, does it?

I'm not a Republican, I just believe in everything hardcore Republicans believe in. :biggrin:
 
  • #496
WhoWee said:
As Romney continues to battle for the GOP nomination - the reluctance of the Right to embrace him should be a good sign and helping him with Moderates and Independents - shouldn't it?

Depends on why they're reluctant to embrace him.

Not only are people influenced by a candidate's stand on the issues; they're influenced by their impression of his character/personality.

It's entirely possible that the impression of many conservatives is identical to that of liberals when it comes to Romney's personality/character.

While I find him acceptable politically (or at least his record is acceptable), I just have a hard time imagining myself voting for him. It's not his views I don't like - it's just him. It doesn't mean that there's no way I would vote for him - just that I sure would think about that long and hard before doing so.

Actually, I felt the same way about Bush 43 in 2000. I eventually swallowed hard and voted for Bush in spite of how I felt about him as a person (spoiled rich kid that wasted half his life partying). In retrospect, I can hardly believe I actually did that.
 
  • #499
Actually, I'm an unrepresented angry independent conservative - business owner - struggling to stay afloat in a time of great political and economic uncertainty.

IMO - in 2008 I thought Senator Obama was too inexperienced and too Lib - he has proven himself to be the inept executive/full time campaigner and disaster I feared. On the other hand, I think mitt Romney has the correct mix of experience to deal with the problems President Obama has either created or kicked down the road.
 
  • #500
WhoWee said:
On the other hand, I think mitt Romney has the correct mix of experience to deal with the problems President Obama has either created or kicked down the road.
And I feel the opposite.
 

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