Is my contractor upselling me?

[DaveC426913]

TL;DR Summary

Contractor is quoting me for replacing my panel. Do I need to?

I'm getting equipment for a pool installed. (I went with the electrcial guy that works with the pool place).

He showed me my panel is full and has no more room for a pool circuit. This is an unanticipated expense. Nevertheless, he muttered some stuff about a new, modern panel that sounded good at the time.

I woke up the other night when my hindbrain finally processed what he was telling me. He said moving forward "I might have problems locating breakers for his old panel", so taking it out and putting in a newer, larger one would be better.

Well the quote came in for the whole install and it's over $6Gs, so "it sounded good at the time" no longer sounds so good.

Does this pass the smell test?

Sure, if I had unlimited money, I might replace the entire panel (which, by the way, is larger and therefore requires cutting a bigger hole - not that I care) but it seems to be I might cut down on the pool costs (which are now over $50K and pushing 60K with the services) if I can just have him install a pony panel (subpanel).

And the big question, of course, is will this save me any significant money? (I've asked them already for a quote for a pony panel, so we'll see.)

Is my thinking cromulent?

Here is the first part of the quote. The second part - what they do outside - is not germane but it's another $3Gs.

 

[berkeman]

And when you drove to your local property inspection office to ask to speak with one of their inspectors, what did they say?

https://www.rsbelectricalinc.com/blog/understand-electrical-code-compliance

 

[Averagesupernova]

How old is the panel? How many amp is the main breaker? You can do a load estimate yourself based on equipment in your house, square footage, etc. You can buy good diy books on this sort of thing. Just because you bought the book doesn't mean you have to do the work but you will learn how to estimate the size of service panel needed.
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Also, get some other bids. It's like buying anything. The more you shop around and talk to people, the more you learn.
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I see you have 18 spaces that are taken up by nine 2-pole breakers. This seems like a lot. What are you all powering with those?

 

[DaveC426913]

And when you drove to your local property inspection office to ask to speak with one of their inspectors, what did they say?

https://www.rsbelectricalinc.com/blog/understand-electrical-code-compliance

Er. Is it common practice to go to the inspection office to ask them about panel work?



The reference you provided says: "The electrical box must be a suitable size for the wiring. That means it must have enough room so the wires and cables aren’t cramped inside."

OK. Sure. That says nothing either way about sub panels.

 

[berkeman]

Er. Is it common practice to go to the inspection office to ask them about panel work?

Yes, that is the first place I will go to ask about what permits I need to pull for the work, and if the contractor quotes I'm getting seem reasonable.

 

[Baluncore]

That looks like an old-style breaker box.
The breakers might now be smaller, so should fit in the same size cabinet, in the same size hole in the wall.

Would you get RCD, RCCB, in the new box ?

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes, that is the first place I will go to ask about what permits I need to pull for the work,

Well, the pool suppliers and their contractors handle all the permits.

and if the contractor quotes I'm getting seem reasonable.

I should have asked around for other quotes. Because this was part and parcel of buying a pool, I sort of inadvertantly skipped that step.

 

[Frabjous]

A sub-panel will not increase the maximum amperage you can draw.

 

[DaveC426913]

Well yes, the amperage still needs to be upgraded. That's not the issue. The issue is about tearing out all the existing work.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Well yes, the amperage still needs to be upgraded. That's not the issue. The issue is about tearing out all the existing work.

You haven't told us the amperage of the existing panel. If it does in fact need to be upgraded, how can you expect to magically get more capacity without replacing equipment?

 

[DaveC426913]

You haven't told us the amperage of the existing panel.

Quote specs say 125 amps upgrade to 200.

If it does in fact need to be upgraded, how can you expect to magically get more capacity without replacing equipment?

No magic!

Of course some replacement will have to be done. I did not mean to suggest otherwise.

Are you saying that upgrading the amperage requires removing and replacing the whole panel?

I've been through this in my last house. Pretty sure they upgraded the amperage and left the existing panel, adding a pony panel for more circuits.

 

[renormalize]

TL;DR Summary: Contractor is quoting me for replacing my panel. Do I need to?

Here's a reddit discussion started by someone with the same question:

Their old panel in question looks more or less identical to yours:

 

[Averagesupernova]

Are you saying that upgrading the amperage requires removing and replacing the whole panel?

Yes. How else would you do it. The panel and wires feeding it will need to be upgraded. The utility may want to replace the meter socket and wire between it and the transformer. It varies from one place to another who pays for what upstream of the meter. Poco always furnishes the meter on their dime. But not necessarily the meter can.
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A sub panel simply gets you more spaces. It has some flexibility in grouping certain circuits together remote from the main panel, or right next to. But it never brings more power into the house.

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes. How else would you do it.

I was assuming the main line into the house needed to be upgraded, of course. I was not assuming that meant the entire existing panel had to be trashed.

A sub panel simply gets you more spaces. It has some flexibility in grouping certain circuits together remote from the main panel, or right next to. But it never brings more power into the house.

Of course not!

 

[Averagesupernova]

Did someone turn over twp pages at once somewhere in this thread
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@DaveC426913 you said in post #11:

I've been through this in my last house. Pretty sure they upgraded the amperage and left the existing panel, adding a pony panel for more circuits.

Apparently your confusion is confusing me. It seems you contradict yourself in post #14.
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Maybe you aren't understanding what a sub panel actually is? The main panel is fed from the meter. The sub panel is fed from a breaker in the main panel. Any current going through the sub panel will also be going through the main panel main breaker.
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There are times when two panels are set side by side and each fed from the meter. This is done in large houses where 200 isn't enough. At that point neither one is a sub panel. It would be considered a hack job if another panel was plunked down beside your 125 amp panel in this fashion. If 200 total is enough then out with the old and in with the new.

 

[DaveC426913]

Yes that is all as I understand it.

There's three components:
- power into the house to the main panel
- the main panel
- a pony panel, which comes off the main panel

I was expecting that power into the house could be upgraded and connected to the main panel without throwing away the existing main panel and putting in a new one.

I am gathering that this is not the case. And even of it were, there's virtually no advantage cost-wise to trying to hang on to the existing main panel.

 

[DaveE]

I was expecting that power into the house could be upgraded and connected to the main panel without throwing away the existing main panel and putting in a new one.

Usually not true, at least in California. Circuit capacities are standardized (i.e. you just can't get 140A service), and so are the panels that are used. Electricians won't oversize downstream parts unless you specifically ask them to because they cost more, are bigger, etc.

I don't really know, but I am very skeptical about the argument about old circuit breakers. There is a big market in supporting older installations, and your panel doesn't look that old to me. You can often get space for more breakers by buying more modern versions that have two branches in the space of one larger older one.

I would also ask about reusing some of your old breakers in the new panel, assuming you need one. They would have to fit on the busbars, of course. They also would have to meet current code requirements to be reinstalled. It's kind of a long shot, but that's a lot of breakers to pay for.

 

[Dullard]

Your Spidey-sense is probably right. There are only 2 real reasons to replace your main panel:
-it's dangerously old
-it's of insufficient capacity (Amperage)

Assuming that you don't have one of the 2 issues above there is probably a much more economic way to achieve the same result. Most panels have 'Tandem' circuit breakers as an option to address 'enough capacity, but not enough slots.'

It's hard to argue against new/shiny unless you're the one funding it. I'd ask about replacing a couple of existing breakers with tandems (to make space). His answer will probably tell you how much actual analysis was involved in his diagnosis.

There is certainly some value in updating your panel - I (personally) can't imagine doing it until it was absolutely necessary (but I'm cheap).

 

[DaveC426913]

I'd ask about replacing a couple of existing breakers with tandems (to make space).

I am intrigued. I will ask about this.

Although it all it does is obviate the need for the pony panel. It does not address average @Averagesupernova 's concern about having to upgrade the panel's amperage anyway.

 

[Dullard]

You absolutely need to have enough amperage (capacity). The capacity of your panel is well-defined. Your 'required' capacity is less so. There are a number of different sizing methods which (ultimately) take advantage of the fact that everything won't be on at full capacity all at once. Note that the sum of individual breaker capacities may exceed the stated capacity of the panel - that's not unusual.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Here is a simple way to calculate service size out of a book that is probably about 20 years old. The panel in your house is at least that old. Do the math and see where you come out WITHOUT anything to be added concerning your pool. In a bit of a hurry, I'll try to get a better pic later if it's too blurry.

 

[DaveC426913]

Here is a simple way to calculate service size out of a book that is probably about 20 years old. The panel in your house is at least that old. Do the math and see where you come out WITHOUT anything to be added concerning your pool. In a bit of a hurry, I'll try to get a better pic later if it's too blurry.

Alas, too blurry and low-rez, even after enhancing in Photoshop.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Alas, too blurry and low-rez, even after enhancing in Photoshop.

If you're not in a big hurry I'll get it better tonight. It should give you an idea of where you are concerning current capacity of what you currently have.

 

[Frabjous]

These two articles popped up
https://kbelectricpa.com/electrical-service-upgrade-for-swimming-pool-ask-electrician/
https://www.riverpoolsandspas.com/b...al-service-panel-upgrade-for-my-swimming-pool

The big number is an electric heater which needs around 50A.

 

[DaveC426913]

My contractor called me back. He thinks we only have 100A. I may have read the wrong imprint.

He has drawn up a new quote that involves leaving in the existing panel. It may not save a lot of money but I may be able to chip away at the total. He suggests digging my own trench would cut some costs as well.

New quote comes in at $3700. Now I can go pull my wife in off the ledge...

 

[Averagesupernova]

The biggest thing that will affect the size of the service is whether your heating (all, including water and clothes dryer) is gas or not. I notice you have more than half of the available space taken up by 2-pole breakers. This implies a number of 240 volt loads such as heating equipment. In about 5-6 hours when I get home I should be able to get you a better snapshot of the load estimator that I so inconsiderately posted earlier all blurry. I can zoom in on the one on my phone and see it quite clearly. I'll take pix of it in smaller chunks.

 

[Averagesupernova]

Let's try it again:

 

[Averagesupernova]

The pix are taken out of a Black and Decker Home Improvement Library book. Advanced Home Wiring. Copyright is 1992. Pretty sure I didn't buy it that long ago. I did buy it new. I think you'll be surprised at the size panel required.

 

[DaveC426913]

The biggest thing that will affect the size of the service is whether your heating (all, including water and clothes dryer) is gas or not.

Gas dryer, gas furnace, 2 electric stoves. Two family house.