Is My Understanding of Homotopy and the Fundamental Group Correct?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter MathematicalPhysicist
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Group
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the understanding of homotopy and the fundamental group, specifically focusing on properties of the fundamental group, surjectivity of induced maps, and characteristics of star convex sets in relation to simply connected spaces. Participants explore theoretical aspects, proofs, and examples related to these concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant defines the fundamental group \(\pi_1(X,x_0)\) and discusses conditions under which it is abelian, proposing that if two paths \(a\) and \(b\) from \(x_0\) to \(x_1\) yield the same homotopy class, then the group is abelian.
  • Another participant agrees with the first proof regarding the abelian nature of the fundamental group but suggests that the surjectivity of the induced map \(r_*:\pi_1(X,a_0)\to\pi_1(A,a_0)\) needs to be shown as well-defined.
  • Participants discuss the requirement to show that every loop based at the star point is homotopic to the constant loop, with one participant questioning the existence of non-trivial loops that pass through multiple distinct points.
  • A participant introduces a homotopy \(H(t,x) = tx\) to demonstrate that any loop can be contracted to the star point, implying that the space is contractible and thus has a trivial fundamental group.
  • There is a repeated emphasis on the need to show that all loops based at the star point are homotopic to the constant loop, with some participants seeking clarification on the implications of this requirement.
  • One participant raises a question about the significance of checking \(\pi_1\) at a single base point rather than multiple base points.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the need to demonstrate that loops based at the star point are homotopic to the constant loop. However, there remains some uncertainty regarding the existence of non-trivial loops and the implications of the proofs presented. The discussion does not reach a consensus on all points, particularly regarding the nature of loops in star convex sets.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note the necessity of showing that the induced map is well-defined, and there are unresolved questions about the implications of homotopy and the fundamental group in relation to different base points.

MathematicalPhysicist
Science Advisor
Gold Member
Messages
4,662
Reaction score
372
I have a few questions on this topic, and i want to see if i got them partially right or wrong.
1.\pi_1(X,x_0) is the fundamental group of X based on x_0, i.e the groups of homotopy classes which are loops based in x0.
Suppose that x1,x0 are points in a path connected space X, then the above group is abelian iff for every pair of paths: a,b from x0 to x1 we get that a'([f])=[a^-1]*[f]*[a]=[b^-1]*[f]*=b'([f]) for every [f] in the above group.

2. Let A be a subset of X, suppose r:X->A is a continuous map s.t r(a)=a for each a in A. if a0 is in A, show that:
r_*:\pi_1(X,a_0)->\pi_1(A,a_0)
is surjective where: r_*([f])=[rof]
3. show that every star convex set is simply connected, i.e it's path connected and has the trivial fundamental group.

here's what I did for 1:
suppose the group is abelian, if I show that a'^-1ob' is the identity then it will follow that a'=b' ( or so me think).
so here it goes:
b'^-1oa'([f])=[a^-1][f][a][b^-1]
but because the group is abelian and b*a^-1 (im using here the notation of my lecturer and munkres for pasting of paths) is a loop based in x_0, then [b*a^-1] commutes with [f] and it equals [a^-1] so the above term equals: [f][a^-1][a][b^-1]=[f]
so it's indeed the identity function and thus a'=b'.
to prove the next implication we simply notice that for every paths: a,b from x0 to x1,
a'=b' so if [g] is in this group we can represnet it as:
g=a*b^-1
so if we operate this [f] we will get agian [f], i.e
g'([f])=[g^-1][f][g]=[a^-1][f][a][b^-1]=b'^-1(a'([f]))=[f]
so they commute and it's abelian, am i right here?


now for two, if it acts only or pi_1(A,a_0) then obviously it's surjcetive but how to show it for other elements of pi_1(X,a_0), wait a minute I think that it's simple enough because every element of pi_1(A,a_0) is in the form of [rof] for f a loop based on a_0, cause if it's a loop, the we can paste it with another loop in A based in a_0, and thus every loop based in a_0 in pi_1(X,a_0).
Not sure if i ogt it right i mean if [f] is in pi_1(A,a_0) then obviously r_*([f])=[rof]=[f] so in this case it's the identity but if for example [f] is in pi_1(X,a_0) and not in pi_1(A,a_0), then maybe because rof:[0,1]->A, and rof(0)=r(f(0))=r(a_0)=a_0=rof(1)=r(a_0) then also [rof] is homotopy loop class based in a_0, well now that I type this I think that this is rather rudimentary.

Anyway for the third question I don't see a clear answer, I need to show that every loop based in the star point is the trivial one, i.e it goes and returns the same path but with different directions.
Not sure how to show it, I mean can't we have a loop that passes through three distinct points and it passes by the star points twice and the other two only once (which is a non trivial loop).

any hints?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Your first proof looks good. The second, you're right, is pretty simple, although you might also need to show the map is well defined (ie, r takes X-homotopic loops to A-homotopic loops).

Anyway for the third question I don't see a clear answer, I need to show that every loop based in the star point is the trivial one, i.e it goes and returns the same path but with different directions.
Not sure how to show it, I mean can't we have a loop that passes through three distinct points and it passes by the star points twice and the other two only once (which is a non trivial loop).

I'm not sure what you're saying here. You need to show every loop is homotopic to the constant loop. You know there's a line connecting every point to the basepoint, so try sending the points of the loop down along this line.
 
assume the star point is the origin. let H(t,x) = tx, for t in [0,1]. restricted to the star set, it contracts the space to the origin.

in particular it contracts any loop. but anyway, a contractible space has trivial pi one.
 
But status I need to show that besides the constant loop there are no other loops based in the star point.

So mathwonk, H(t,x)=tx is a homotopy between all paths connecting points with the star points and the constant loop, am I wrong here?
 
loop quantum gravity said:
But status I need to show that besides the constant loop there are no other loops based in the star point.

So mathwonk, H(t,x)=tx is a homotopy between all paths connecting points with the star points and the constant loop, am I wrong here?

The center star point has a straight path to any other point. You can use the standard straight-line homotopy to shrink all loops to the center point.

Another question is to ask, why is it enough to find Pi_1 at the base point x0 rather than check for other base points?
 
JasonRox said:
Pi_1
You mean pi_1 (\pi_1); Pi_1 (\Pi_1) is the fundamental groupoid... which is very closely related to, but not the same as, the fundamental group.
 
loop quantum gravity said:
But status I need to show that besides the constant loop there are no other loops based in the star point.

No, you need to show all loops based at the star point are homotopic (to the constant loop), and I explained a way to do this.
 
OK thanks.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
8K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
1K
  • · Replies 17 ·
Replies
17
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
6K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K