Is Poincare symmetry the real thing?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the nature and validity of Poincare symmetry in physics, particularly in the context of quantum field theory and the Standard Model (SM). Participants explore whether Poincare symmetry is fundamental or merely an approximation, and how it relates to conservation laws and causality in physical theories.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that removing the cutoff in lattice theories is essential for achieving true Poincare symmetry, suggesting that approximate theories are merely construction tools.
  • Others propose that Poincare symmetry can be seen as a natural long-distance approximation of wave equations, implying it does not need to hold fundamentally.
  • It is noted that Poincare symmetry leads to conservation laws via Noether's theorem, which some participants claim are crucial for guiding theory building in physics.
  • Some participants challenge the necessity of Poincare symmetry, suggesting that the Standard Model contains complex information that can guide theory building without it.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of using lattice models and whether causality can be maintained without Poincare symmetry, with some asserting that causality can still be formulated in preferred frames.
  • Concerns are raised about the limitations of lattice models in capturing relativistic effects, particularly in high-energy physics contexts.
  • Some participants emphasize the importance of considering both long-distance approximations and the underlying microscopic theories that may extend beyond observable limits.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views on the fundamental nature of Poincare symmetry, with no consensus reached on whether it is indispensable for physical theories or merely an approximation. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of dropping Poincare symmetry and its role in guiding theoretical development.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of atomic theory and the potential for theories to extend beyond observable limits, indicating that the discussion is nuanced and dependent on various assumptions about the nature of symmetry and physical laws.

  • #31
A. Neumaier said:
There are many actions invariant under the group of the lattice but not under the rotation group. All these must be excluded by fine-tuning. There is no renormalization criterion that would exclude the rotation symmetry-violating higher order terms of the action.
Why do you think so? The straightforward continuous limit is nothing else but what renormalization gives. Of course, with postulating some symmetries one can restrict the terms which are allowed in a renormalization procedure. But this does not give the other terms greater long distance effects. They may disappear in the long distance limit as well. What survives at long distances are only the lowest order terms.
 
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  • #32
Demystifier said:
But isn't a similar feature present in standard field theories? Even though the equations of motion are dynamical, one puts restrictions on initial conditions, e.g. that the field must vanish at infinity. What's the difference between such standard restrictions and your restrictions?
Why do you ask me?

I think that your claim that there is a certain distinction between fixed and dynamical degrees of freedom has a problem with the preferred coordinates - the straightforward example of something fixed, as describing absolute space and time - fulfilling a quite dynamical-looking equation.

It was an aspect of my claim that covariance is nothing physical, given that every classical theory allows a covariant formulation.

If one, anyway, has to add some fixed boundary conditions even for really dynamical entities, your problem to distinguish them becomes even greater.
 

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