Is relativistic mass not an appropriate concept?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the appropriateness of the concept of relativistic mass in the context of special relativity. Participants explore its historical origins, its utility in modern physics, and the implications of using invariant mass instead.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Historical
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that relativistic mass is outdated and lacks utility, suggesting that its decline in use reflects its ineffectiveness in modern physics.
  • Others defend the concept, citing its historical development and relevance in understanding the behavior of charged particles and electromagnetic contributions to mass.
  • A participant questions the dismissal of relativistic mass, proposing that it should be discussed alongside rest mass, similar to how time and length are treated in different inertial frames.
  • Concerns are raised about the potential confusion caused by conflating relativistic mass with rest mass and the implications for momentum conservation.
  • Some participants reference Einstein's views, noting that he expressed skepticism about the utility of relativistic mass, advocating for a focus on rest mass instead.
  • There is a discussion about the definitions of mass and how they relate to force and acceleration, with some suggesting that relativistic mass can be derived from these definitions.
  • One participant highlights a specific historical context in which the concept of mass was understood differently, emphasizing the evolution of the term in physics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the appropriateness of relativistic mass. There are competing views on its relevance and utility, with some advocating for its inclusion in discussions of mass and others favoring the exclusive use of invariant mass.

Contextual Notes

Limitations in the discussion include varying definitions of mass, the historical context of the concept, and the unresolved nature of how relativistic mass relates to momentum and energy in modern physics.

  • #31
atyy said:
how do you motivate that the stress-energy tensor is the generalization of "gravitational mass" when searching for a generalization of Newton's gravity consistent with special relativity?
AFAIK there is no generalization of Newtonian gravity which is consistent with SR. I always make the point that the source of gravity in GR is the stress-energy tensor precisely to encourage the understanding that GR is not merely an extension of Newtonian gravity.
 
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  • #32
I'd agree that there doesn't appear to be any fundamental definition of mass in GR, which gives rise to the large number of non-fundamental definitions we do have (and these definitions require additional assumptions to calculate at all, such as a static metric, or asymptotic flatness, another reason they are not fundamental).

As far as motivation goes, the approach I tend to use (borrowed from the textbooks I learned from) is to initially talk about gravity as the result of geodesic deviation, rather than a force.

I'll also refer readers to Baez's "The Meaning of Einstein's equation" which ties the the second derivative of the volume of a sphere of coffee grounds following geodesics to the enclosed density and pressure.

I'll tend to use the Newtonian idea of mass more to motivate Komar mass based on Wald's treatment - though this is more of an advanced topic than something I'd introduce right away, unlesss the idea of mass was brought up specifically. The Komar mass also ties in nicely with Baez's treatment, however.
 

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