News Is Sarkozy addressing the ongoing violence in French suburbs effectively?

[deckart]

That wasn't the question.

It may very well be part of the answer.

 

[Informal Logic]

Above I posted the issue of immigration to meet demands for cheap labor, and the similarity to the current explosion of immigration into the US (though mostly illegal, and the French are probably less accepting than Americans). I made that point, and add the information below because IMO these problems can arise for reasons not related to a particular race, but rather a matter of a foreign culture into another and inevitable assimilation problems. It brought to mind other times of US history:

Once Africans were captured and brought across the Atlantic on the horrific Middle Passage, they were put into slavery in South America, the Caribbean, or the United States. By the late eighteenth century, a growing number of people in the United States began to express uneasiness with the slave system. George Washington, the nation's first President, freed his slaves upon his death in 1799. Others did the same, and the number of free blacks in America began to rise sharply in many areas during the nineteenth century. At the same time, abolitionist groups that demanded the emancipation of all slaves rose in strength.

From this climate was born the idea of colonization, which proposed sending blacks, free and slave, back to Africa. The plan was supported by many of America's most prominent citizens, and by 1817 the movement began officially with the founding of the American Colonization Society. Sending their first blacks to Africa in 1820, the effort faltered at first due to its failure to find suitable territory on which to settle. The problem was solved, however, after the U.S. was able to acquire a large portion of land on the west coast of the continent. Liberia was created from this early settlement, and later became an independent country. Colonization continued sporadically for the next few decades, but support was inconsistent. The Civil War, and the emancipation that came with it, basically brought an end to the era of colonization in the United States.

http://beatl.barnard.columbia.edu/students/his3487/lembrich/seminar6.html

...I think we're just looking at a part of the country the state thought of as an oubliette that they're now they're being very rudely reminded of. People who have never had the benefit of law and regulation, but are of late the focus of it. But whether they arrived at this action independantly through desperation, or whether their desperation has made them open to such action provoked from outside... I don't know.

Still... whatever the reason... burning disabled women and beating someone to death for trying to extinguish a fire doesn't make a sympathetic case...

I believe there was another “Back To Africa” movement in which many African Americans went back to Africa of their own choosing, though mostly unsuccessful as they found life there to be even more undesirable than as a minority in the US. It makes me wonder if these citizens of immigrant ancestry have stopped to consider the alternatives and reflect upon their own efforts toward assimilation. Certainly it is not accomplished through destruction of property or risk to life.

Mind you his complete and total misunderstanding of the situation goes someway to explain why Israel has so many problem's with it's neighbours.

I also wonder how the Israeli’s would feel if another Arab state was created like Liberia…and like Israel?

 

[Zlex]

Check out post #26 in the impeachment thread--good old Halliburton and Bush and his administration's wonderful management of Iraq.
(I now realize why people dislike intellectuals--especially those who love to listen to themselves.)
We discussed this before in another section of PF, and I agree with you on this one deckart.

'Dites seulement l''Non!', s'il vous plait!

Belgium, of all places. Gee, who was the first to lead the *****ing up in Rwanda, turning over their unfired automatic weapons to random thugs on behalf of the West before being tortured and brutally murdered?

I'm willing to bet the Enlightened Intellectuals award Kofi another Noble Peace Prize for handling this one, but he's going to have to break his '800,000 corpses' record this time.

I wonder what the Las Vegas odds are on that one? I don't think they actually take bets on sure things.


The European Riots will stop

a] ...when the rioters find the stops.

b] ...when the rioters get tired of finding that there are no stops.

c] ...temporarily, when the rioters agree to allow UN Peacekeepers to show up and defend themselves, just so they can torment them by immediately booting them out of Europe? (But...where will the Belgians run this time?)

d] ...when they are shamed by armies of ... BigHeadedPuppeteers?

e] ...when McDonald's serves them all the free veggieburgers they can carry away?

f] ...when the US leaves Iraq?

g] ...when the Jews are finally wiped off the face of the earth?

h]... when the Dems retake control of the DoD? Wait a minute, that was a repeat of g] sorry.

i]... when they finally receive some understanding?

j]... when Hell freezes over?

k]...when Joan Baez sings at them?

l]...when Jane Fonda poses on a burned out Citroen and gives them a big thumbs up?

Who knows? We're still in the 'racism and poverty' spraytpainting of kids in Polo shirts part of the festivities.

 

[SOS2008]

'Dites seulement l''Non!', s'il vous plait!
Belgium, of all places. Gee, who was the first to lead the *****ing up in Rwanda, turning over their unfired automatic weapons to random thugs on behalf of the West before being tortured and brutally murdered?
I'm willing to bet the Enlightened Intellectuals award Kofi another Noble Peace Prize for handling this one, but he's going to have to break his '800,000 corpses' record this time.
I wonder what the Las Vegas odds are on that one? I don't think they actually take bets on sure things.
The European Riots will stop
a] ...when the rioters find the stops.
b] ...when the rioters get tired of finding that there are no stops.
c] ...temporarily, when the rioters agree to allow UN Peacekeepers to show up and defend themselves, just so they can torment them by immediately booting them out of Europe? (But...where will the Belgians run this time?)
d] ...when they are shamed by armies of ... BigHeadedPuppeteers?
e] ...when McDonald's serves them all the free veggieburgers they can carry away?
f] ...when the US leaves Iraq?
g] ...when the Jews are finally wiped off the face of the earth?
h]... when the Dems retake control of the DoD? Wait a minute, that was a repeat of g] sorry.
i]... when they finally receive some understanding?
j]... when Hell freezes over?
k]...when Joan Baez sings at them?
l]...when Jane Fonda poses on a burned out Citroen and gives them a big thumbs up?
Who knows? We're still in the 'racism and poverty' spraytpainting of kids in Polo shirts part of the festivities.

My French is rusty, but I did enjoy the humor in your post. Joan Baez…you want to talk about torture, Limp Bizkit doesn’t come close.

 

[Mercator]

My French is rusty, but I did enjoy the humor in your post. Joan Baez…you want to talk about torture, Limp Bizkit doesn’t come close.

Nice to see that somebody knows what he is talking about. Another flaw in the intelligent design if you ask me.

 

[SOS2008]

Nice to see that somebody knows what he is talking about. Another flaw in the intelligent design if you ask me.

Oh, I thought it was entertainment.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

It may very well be part of the answer.

Yes, to a different question.

I believe there was another “Back To Africa” movement in which many African Americans went back to Africa of their own choosing, though mostly unsuccessful as they found life there to be even more undesirable than as a minority in the US. It makes me wonder if these citizens of immigrant ancestry have stopped to consider the alternatives and reflect upon their own efforts toward assimilation. Certainly it is not accomplished through destruction of property or risk to life.

I really hope this isn't a "they should be happy they're not in Afghanistan" argument. That somewhere in Africa was worse than living as a minority in the US does not justify oppression and racism in the US, and it is not easy to make an effort towards assimilation when the would-be assimilators don't want you.

 

[Informal Logic]

I really hope this isn't a "they should be happy they're not in Afghanistan" argument. That somewhere in Africa was worse than living as a minority in the US does not justify oppression and racism in the US, and it is not easy to make an effort towards assimilation when the would-be assimilators don't want you.

No, I do not propose that argument. I assume the immigrants entered France legally. If so, there is obligation on Frances part to help them assimilate. At the same time immigrants are responsible for assimilation into the host country as well. Often minorities set themselves apart. People want to immigrate where life is better, but you do not show up on someone’s doorstep and make demands that they change their home to your liking. For example, learning the national language, abiding by laws, etc.

 

[Anttech]

No, I do not propose that argument. I assume the immigrants entered France legally. If so, there is obligation on Frances part to help them assimilate. At the same time immigrants are responsible for assimilation into the host country as well. Often minorities set themselves apart. People want to immigrate where life is better, but you do not show up on someone’s doorstep and make demands that they change their home to your liking. For example, learning the national language, abiding by laws, etc.

actually I'll bet that these people are 2nd 3rd generation Immigrants... Ill have a look to see if i can back this up with some links

 

[Informal Logic]

actually I'll bet that these people are 2nd 3rd generation Immigrants... Ill have a look to see if i can back this up with some links

I believe these are second and third generation, and that Germany had similar immigration but to what extent I cannot recall. I admit that since I do not live in France, I am viewing the topic more generally. In reference to the US, I will try to find transcripts for a recent review of black culture and how it hurts performance of high school students, for example. More recently there is the matter of sudden increase in the Hispanic population and demands to speak Spanish in business, etc., which has caused resentment by other Americans. It just seems both parties need to make an effort toward improvement of conditions.

 

[Anttech]

France does have a very strange method of assimilation. It is illegal in France to even count immigrants.. France has always had some racial problems also.. And it looks like this past and methodology is catching up with them... It seems there republic method doesn't work, and will need changing.

One of the things I love about London is its diversity, I am not saying the UK does immigration perfectly, but they absorb different cultures and then that culture becomes part of ours.. Look at the British "National" dish for an example: Curry.

France needs to start listening to these people and stop ignoring the fact that they are being treated as second class citizens or this problem will keep coming back to haunt them... The Unemployment rates in the ghettos are twice that of the national average, this says something in its-self...

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

One of the things I love about London is its diversity, I am not saying the UK does immigration perfectly, but they absorb different cultures and then that culture becomes part of ours.. Look at the British "National" dish for an example: Curry.

France needs to start listening to these people and stop ignoring the fact that they are being treated as second class citizens or this problem will keep coming back to hunt them... The Unemployment rates in the ghettos are twice that of the national average, this says something in its-self...

Yeah, but France already had a great cuisine before the influx of Indian chefs. Us Brits had some meat prepared by a special technique called "cooking with no particular thought", vegetables boiled with a pinch of salt, and a flexible sauce called "gravy" that was just left over from cooking the meat. We desparately needed immigration so we could have dinners out and takeaways.

 

[Anttech]

Actually some British food is great:

Examples:

Lamb hot Pot
Steak Pies
Fish
Sunday Roasts
Shepards pie
(deep fried Mars bars haha)

 

[Art]

Here's a link to a very good opinion piece regarding the problems in France which I think is well worth a read for those interested in the background leading up to the riots.

The Problem with Frenchness

Readers have asked me for comment about the riots in France that have now provoked emergency laws and a curfew. What I would rather comment on, however, is the myths that have governed many rightwing American comments on the tragic events. Actually, I can only think that the disturbances must produce a huge ice cream headache for the dittoheads. French of European heritage pitted against French of African and North African heritage? How could they ever pick a side?

http://www.juancole.com/2005/11/problem-with-frenchness-readers-have.html

 

[Anttech]

very sober opinion... Nice link

 

[loseyourname]

That was a very good link, Art. Something I've found informative is the NPR Page on the French riots. The archive goes back a couple of days and includes reports and, more importantly I think, interviews with many French people on both sides of the issue.

 

[vanesch]

Again, I would like to point out that in these violent riots, a small minority of people was actually involved which caused a lot of damage, and the main problem is in the long build-up of "unlawfulness" in these quarters, much more than "racial discrimination" or other often invoked problems (which ALSO exist, but have no direct link).

In a recent article in Liberation:

http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=338547

it is said that of the 2838 arrested people during the riots, 80% (EIGHTY PERCENT) is known by the police already for drug traffic and other underground economy activities.

This clearly proves that it is a matter of GANGS (organized crime) and NOT a matter of popular riots, racism, or whatever. Of course these gangs (which indeed mainly consist of youngsters of North-African decent) have all interest to shift the spotlight to racism or other topics.

 

[Art]

Again, I would like to point out that in these violent riots, a small minority of people was actually involved which caused a lot of damage, and the main problem is in the long build-up of "unlawfulness" in these quarters, much more than "racial discrimination" or other often invoked problems (which ALSO exist, but have no direct link).
In a recent article in Liberation:
http://www.liberation.fr/page.php?Article=338547
it is said that of the 2838 arrested people during the riots, 80% (EIGHTY PERCENT) is known by the police already for drug traffic and other underground economy activities.
This clearly proves that it is a matter of GANGS (organized crime) and NOT a matter of popular riots, racism, or whatever. Of course these gangs (which indeed mainly consist of youngsters of North-African decent) have all interest to shift the spotlight to racism or other topics.

I do not think it is as clear as that. We would need to know under what circumstances the 2838 people were arrested. If the police simply picked up everybody they had a file on or suspected were gang members then the fact they have records is simply a circular argument.

 

[vanesch]

I do not think it is as clear as that. We would need to know under what circumstances the 2838 people were arrested. If the police simply picked up everybody they had a file on or suspected were gang members then the fact they have records is simply a circular argument.

As far as I understand (not in the article, but it was on the radio too), these were arrests made "on the spot" of people rioting - at least that is what I understood.