Is Sarkozy addressing the ongoing violence in French suburbs effectively?

[Mercator]

http://www.cantonrep.com/index.php?Category=24&ID=250955&r=1
I am a bit surprised by this happening in France. It reminds me of Watts in Los Angeles in 1965, Or the burn baby burn riots in Detroit. These incidents have always involved people who live in poverty. And typically ,in this country, have been triggered by an incident involving police.
The latest news I read said that it has spread to twenty towns. There must be some very discontent young people in France.

Yes, It's getting worse. Of course France has it's slums like most other countries and problems can be expected there. The dangerous and regrettable fact here is that it is not just some hooligans, but immigrants, which makes it much more dangerous, prone to polarization and escalation. I hope this can be stopped because if it escalates in France, for sure other European countries will follow.

 

[vanesch]

The dangerous and regrettable fact here is that it is not just some hooligans, but immigrants, which makes it much more dangerous, prone to polarization and escalation. I hope this can be stopped because if it escalates in France, for sure other European countries will follow.

This is in fact the main point: France has a rather large population of North-African immigrants - mainly due to the French adventure in Algeria, and the huge number of people they got from there after their letting go of Algeria in a very ugly conflict. The problem is that in the 60-ies and 70-ies, french authorities found no better idea than to lump all these immigrants into big big new-build suburbs (so that their nice city-centers would not get "polluted" by these populations), without any thought about making them integrate French society. So they had big new immigrant quarters at the outsides of the big cities (especially Paris, but also Lyon, Lille, ...), and had them live off social security grants. Some of these immigrants adapted well, and got "off the ground", but many who stayed in these quarters just transformed them into ghettos. We're now having the second and even third generation of people there, having French nationality, but living cut off from the normal French society.

Because of fear of being stamped racist - and in fact because they didn't care - for many many years the authorities didn't intervene there, these quarters have been zones of non-law, where gangs of youngsters make the law ; and the police rarely shows up there. The French state just pumps social security money into them, to try to keep them calm.

Sarkozy (minister of interior) now wants to get "law and order" back into these quarters, and sometimes tries to do it the hard way ; the gangs of youngsters there don't want to see that, and want to defend their territories.
The car burning activities have been tolerated for years in these suburbs ; the native French don't care much (they don't live there), and it is a way for the gangs of youngsters to show their "power" and their rivalry.

So it is not so much a "popular revolt", it is some law-less situation in immigrant ghettos that has been going on for years and where Sarkozy now wants to get law and order back.

 

[Skyhunter]

This is in fact the main point: France has a rather large population of North-African immigrants - mainly due to the French adventure in Algeria, and the huge number of people they got from there after their letting go of Algeria in a very ugly conflict. The problem is that in the 60-ies and 70-ies, french authorities found no better idea than to lump all these immigrants into big big new-build suburbs (so that their nice city-centers would not get "polluted" by these populations), without any thought about making them integrate French society. So they had big new immigrant quarters at the outsides of the big cities (especially Paris, but also Lyon, Lille, ...), and had them live off social security grants. Some of these immigrants adapted well, and got "off the ground", but many who stayed in these quarters just transformed them into ghettos. We're now having the second and even third generation of people there, having French nationality, but living cut off from the normal French society.
Because of fear of being stamped racist - and in fact because they didn't care - for many many years the authorities didn't intervene there, these quarters have been zones of non-law, where gangs of youngsters make the law ; and the police rarely shows up there. The French state just pumps social security money into them, to try to keep them calm.
Sarkozy (minister of interior) now wants to get "law and order" back into these quarters, and sometimes tries to do it the hard way ; the gangs of youngsters there don't want to see that, and want to defend their territories.
The car burning activities have been tolerated for years in these suburbs ; the native French don't care much (they don't live there), and it is a way for the gangs of youngsters to show their "power" and their rivalry.
So it is not so much a "popular revolt", it is some law-less situation in immigrant ghettos that has been going on for years and where Sarkozy now wants to get law and order back.

Sounds like Oakland, CA a decade ago.
[edit] JK

 

[Evo]

Are you sure that capitalism is the problem?

The thread got way off topic on a rant on capitalism that had no connection to the topic. If you want the deleted posts moved to a thread on capitalism, let me know.

Please see Vanesh's post on the causes of the current problems.

 

[edward]

Sounds like Oakland, CA a decade ago.
[edit] JK

Yes, except most of the slums and housing projects in the USA are in the inner cities rather than the suburbs.

 

[Smurf]

nevermind... obviously everyone's more content to argue about economics than to address the issue.

 

[Art]

nevermind... obviously everyone's more content to argue about economics than to address the issue.

It seems it is the impoverishment of the immigrants living in these enclaves that is the issue.

 

[Evo]

It seems it is the impoverishment of the immigrants living in these enclaves that is the issue.

That and the way that society has ostracized them, they aren't even considered second class citizens, they're dirt. The French have a word for them.

It seems the French no longer have a choice in ignoring them. I hope it's not too late.

 

[Astronuc]

Yes, except most of the slums and housing projects in the USA are in the inner cities rather than the suburbs.

Not necessarily - I could take you to many cities and show you slums in what used to suburbs. When I lived in Houston, I used to go into parts of town that looked like Beirut during the civil war. I was probably the only 'white' person around for miles, except those passing by on the interstate (freeway) or main roads.

 

[Art]

That and the way that society has ostracized them, they aren't even considered second class citizens, they're dirt. The French have a word for them.
It seems the French no longer have a choice in ignoring them. I hope it's not too late.

I wouldn't imagine the French Interior Minister, Sarkozy, calling them "rabble" and "scum" whose "crime ridden streets need to be cleaned with a power hose" is helping to calm the situation.

Although to give some credit to Sarkozy I believe he wanted to adopt a carrot and stick approach to handling these immigrant areas with affirmative action programs to help them integrate, hand in hand with a strong law and order policy but his cabinet colleagues over-ruled this and decided to use only the stick.

 

[vanesch]

I wouldn't imagine the French Interior Minister, Sarkozy, calling them "rabble" and "scum" whose "crime ridden streets need to be cleaned with a power hose" is helping to calm the situation.
Although to give some credit to Sarkozy I believe he wanted to adopt a carrot and stick approach to handling these immigrant areas with affirmative action programs to help them integrate, hand in hand with a strong law and order policy but his cabinet colleagues over-ruled this and decided to use only the stick.

Yes, those were a few unhappy wordings
I think that *in principle* Sarkozy's approach is the right one: he claims that a majority of people in these suburbs who have social difficulties only WANT law and order restored, it being the first of conditions for them to work their way up, and that it is a rather small minority of youngsters in gangs who cause all that trouble, and make life miserable (more miserable) for the majority of people there, and he wants to get after them.
The problem is that getting after young immigrants quickly gets you the stamp of a racist - one of the reasons many of his predecessors didn't want to get involved and let go. Also, as you pointed out, the carrot is missing. Most of these youngsters there have no hope of being hired somewhere for a job, DO get social security money, and have a perspective of life to just sit at home, watch TV, and do nothing and remain a second-class citizen OR be a hero in the local gang and make a lot of money in "parallel economy" (drug traffic). As the last action has not really been punished for many years, that sounds like an attractive option for some. But one should do something about the first option too.

 

[alexandra]

The thread got way off topic on a rant on capitalism that had no connection to the topic. If you want the deleted posts moved to a thread on capitalism, let me know.
Please see Vanesh's post on the causes of the current problems.

Yes, Evo, I would like to see my response to loseyourname somewhere at least. I don't think it fair that it just be deleted - that makes it look like I cannot respond to loseyourname's arguments, which gives the false impression that loseyourname's arguments are stronger than arguments against his position. This is bias.

EDIT: You guys don't seem to realize what is at stake here. Listen, I'm an expert in this field. I am not an expert in science, although I am studying maths. But I am an expert in this field (social science). Whether you believe this or not, I have been studying this topic for over twenty years. I analysed what is happening in France using what is called a "modernist perspective" in the specialist field of the Social Sciences. If you refuse to give credance to the science in "Social Science", that is pretty arrogant (IMHO). You should not delete my arguments; they attempt to provide an analysis of what is happening politically. I am trying give a social scientist's analysis. I am not surprised that social science is so denigrated, though...

EDIT 2: Actually, if my response to loseyourname gets put in another thread, it will lose its strength of analysis as it will be decontextualised. I guess this is positive proof that there is no longer any free speech on PF. Ok, guys, "G'day" then... Have fun in this new world you're helping create. I hope you enjoy the dumbo fruits of theories like "Intelligent Design" as well. I don't care - you very erroneously think that the current US adminstration's ideology will determine the future of the planet. Maybe it will - but if this is the case, then we (humanity) won't last very long (*cough* extinction - not only of 'lower animal and fauna species', but humans as well). Either way, farewell. S*** happens, as they say 'down under'. Au revoir... and best of luck

alex

 

[Evo]

Yes, Evo, I would like to see my response to loseyourname somewhere at least. I don't think it fair that it just be deleted - that makes it look like I cannot respond to loseyourname's arguments, which gives the false impression that loseyourname's arguments are stronger than arguments against his position. This is bias.

Actually Loseyourname's post was supposed to be deleted also since it was in response to your intial post on capitalism.

Off topic posts will be deleted, no matter the content. They can be made into a separate thread if they have substance, which is why I asked if anyone would like a thread made from the posts. Alexandra, you know no one here is singling you out.

I'm creating a thread called Capitalism, let me know if you want it renamed.

 

[Astronuc]

Ted Stanger has an interesting perspective on the riots. Basically the young non-Europeans are marginalized and disenfranchised.

Understanding the Paris Riots
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4991726

All Things Considered, November 6, 2005 · Ted Stanger, a former Newsweek correspondent and writer on French affairs, discusses the grievances behind the French riots and the political ramifications of the violence.


Amid Ongoing Riots, Chirac Vows to Restore Order
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4991723

All Things Considered, November 6, 2005 · French president Jacques Chirac breaks his silence on the rioting that has shaken his nation for more than a week. Chirac vows to restore order but also pledges to support equal opportunity for all.

In poor suburbs across France, young people, mainly of North African descent, have been torching vehicles, schools and police stations.

Real audio required

 

[Pengwuino]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/

Rioters fired shots at police in an 11th night of riots in France on Sunday, injuring 10 policemen, two of them seriously, police said.

This looks like it's getting out of hand... i think some skulls need to start being bashed in... a little police brutality perhaps...

 

[Skyhunter]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/



This looks like it's getting out of hand... i think some skulls need to start being bashed in... a little police brutality perhaps...

You advocate more violence?

My guess from your tuff guy persona is that you never had anyone give you a good ass-whoopin, or else you have had few too many put on you.

 

[Evo]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9891709/



This looks like it's getting out of hand... i think some skulls need to start being bashed in... a little police brutality perhaps...

Did you read about the 50 year old woman on crutches, trying to get off a bus, they doused her with gasoline and set her on fire.

 

[Mercator]

Did you read about the 50 year old woman on crutches, trying to get off a bus, they doused her with gasoline and set her on fire.

That's disgusting!
And cars were burned in Berlin too now.
What do the right wingers on this board think: is this terrorism? Or a justified revolte against an evil socialist government? And if it's terrorism , which country should be invaded?

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

Did you read about the 50 year old woman on crutches, trying to get off a bus, they doused her with gasoline and set her on fire.

Yes, that was horrific. It was around about that point I stopped giving one about their living conditions - at least they weren't being set on fire.

This whole thing is starting to appear more than discontent. The fact that it's happening in so many places around the country, all at once, seems a little too organised.

The so-called 'motive' - the two boys electrocuted - is not even close to a likely reason for the violence to increase. Now hundreds of cars, trucks, buses, etc are being set alight each night, and the rioters are taking the battle straight to the riot police.

The rioting is getting nearer and nearer to the capital too. The question is, if the police can't contain the violence in these suburbs, what happens if it reaches central Paris, which could feasibly be very soon?

The other worry, for me, is that the same environment could easily spring up in the UK. It has a lower proportion of Arab immigrants and the New Labour government hasn't been quite right-wing enough to cause quite so much discontentment in the Muslim youth, but it is definitely there. We also have the same gang warfare that caused the zero tolerance approach in the French suburbs earlier this year which, I think, is the real reason for the exponential increase in rioting there.

This is pretty bad because it is the exact hand needed by the European right-wing parties. The BNP, a white supremecist party, are increasing in popularity in some cities in Britain, their main goal being the deportation of non-white immigrants and the ceasation of further immigration. The next generation of immigrant families would not doubt be next, and so on. Something like this in the UK would be all their Christmasses coming at once.

In fact, there is some credibility to the notion that they are provoking gang warfare in the UK. In Birmingham, a rumour was put around the black community that a black girl was gang raped by an Arabic gang. A few days ago, thirty graves, all for Arabs, were destroyed and/or toppled and a note was left claiming to be the work of Black Nation. Given that nothing else has really kicked off too much, it does look like both could be the work of some white supremacist group.

This may end up being quite important, beyond death toll and car insurance.

 

[Bystander]

10 days? Little beyond "blowing off steam." Someone got a line on French nukes --- running a "social" distraction to cover an "operation." Or, hopefully, something a little less sinister --- springing a "key" detainee no one's realized is "key?"

 

[Astronuc]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051107/ap_on_re_eu/france_rioting
Man Becomes First Killed in French Rioting

PARIS - A man who was beaten by an attacker while trying to extinguish a trash can fire during riots north of Paris has died of his injuries, becoming the first fatality since the urban unrest started 11 days ago, a police official said Monday. Youths overnight injured three dozen officers and burned more than 1,400 vehicles.

Apparent copycat attacks spread to other European cities for the first time, with five cars torched outside Brussels' main train station, police in the Belgian capital said.

Australia, Austria and Britain became the latest countries to advise their citizens to exercise care in France, joining the United States and Russia in warning tourists to stay away from violence-hit areas.

Alain Rahmouni, a national police spokesman, said the man who was beaten died at a hospital from injuries sustained in the attack, but he had no immediate details about the victim's age or his attacker.

The man was caught by surprise by an attacker after rushing out of his apartment building to put out the fire, Rahmouni said.

Clashes around France left 36 police injured, and vandals burned 1,408 vehicles overnight Sunday-Monday, setting a new high for overnight arson and violence since the rioting started Oct. 27, national police chief Michel Gaudin said.

The mayhem started as an outburst of anger in suburban Paris housing projects and has fanned out nationwide among disaffected youths, mostly of Muslim or African origin, to become France's worst civil unrest in over a decade.

Attacks overnight were reported in 274 towns and police made 395 arrests, Gaudin said.

 

[sid_galt]

That's disgusting!
And cars were burned in Berlin too now.
What do the right wingers on this board think: is this terrorism? Or a justified revolte against an evil socialist government? And if it's terrorism , which country should be invaded?

Neither. IMO, it is more like an unjustified revolt against an evil socialist government. Because a government is socialist doesn't mean that you riot in the streets destroying private property and attacking people.

Of course, the rioters most likely don't see it as a revolt against socialism. But socialism is the root cause.

 

[sid_galt]

The question is, if the police can't contain the violence in these suburbs, what happens if it reaches central Paris, which could feasibly be very soon?

It's not like the police cannot contain the violence. Just give shoot on sight orders and you won't see the rioters a 100 miles near Paris.

The other worry, for me, is that the same environment could easily spring up in the UK. It has a lower proportion of Arab immigrants and the New Labour government hasn't been quite right-wing enough to cause quite so much discontentment in the Muslim youth, but it is definitely there.

I hope you don't think that these riots are somehow the fault of rightwingers. Because its hard to imagine a government more socialist but not communist than the current French one.

We also have the same gang warfare that caused the zero tolerance approach in the French suburbs earlier this year which, I think, is the real reason for the exponential increase in rioting there.

Car burning and violence is a daily schedule in French suburbs. It's just that this time the police decided to intervene and the violence simply soared.

 

[Astronuc]

But socialism is the root cause.

That seems overly simplistic. How is socialism the cause.

IMO, the cause(s) are far more complex - what about corruption and racsim?

A point that has been made is that French government cannot keep statistics by race, so there is no way of telling how well or how poorly any racial group is doing. In theory, anyone with French citizenship is French - i.e. hypothetically there is not distinction based on race. Practically however, French society and Europe for that matter, and all nations of the world to various degrees, are divided by racial groups. Therein lies inherent conflict, particularly when one or more racial groups are less prosperous than neighboring groups.

If socialism has failed, it is failed to achieved 'equal' opportunity. But so-called 'capitalist' countries have also failed in this regard.

 

[sid_galt]

That seems overly simplistic. How is socialism the cause.

IMO, concretely speaking, it was the welfare state and the disastrous public housing projects coupled with a stifling of the economy through socialistic economic policies which caused this.

The welfare state did nothing but make the immigrants lazy and unwilling to work.

The public housing projects segregated the immigrant community from the rest of France and provided a way for the unproductive to survive. Had the system not been introduced, there wouldn't have been any segregation and only the productive and hard working would have stayed in France.

The socialist economic policies killed business and contributed to the unemployment.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

It's not like the police cannot contain the violence. Just give shoot on sight orders and you won't see the rioters a 100 miles near Paris.

They're not Brazilian, so there's no precedent. If this were possible, I can't see why it would not have been employed already under zero tolerance law enforcement, suggesting it is not an option, be it for legal or political reasons.

I hope you don't think that these riots are somehow the fault of rightwingers.

That isn't what I said. You need to read the words writ, not those emblazened on your inner eyelids after decades of propaganda. What I said was: I was concerned that this would be used by right-wing parties as means of either pressuring right-wing policies into legislation or gaining political power themselves, be it locally or nationally. Specifically I referred to white supremacist groups.

Because its hard to imagine a government more socialist but not communist than the current French one.

France is becomming increasingly right-wing, as is much of Old Europe.

Car burning and violence is a daily schedule in French suburbs. It's just that this time the police decided to intervene and the violence simply soared.

You make it sound like a traditional past-time. It's not - it's a recent phenomenon. It's all part of the same issue and, yes, the zero tolerance approach and the presence of riot police in the 25 selected suburbs caused the rioting to escalate.

 

[El Hombre Invisible]

The public housing projects segregated the immigrant community from the rest of France and provided a way for the unproductive to survive.

Do you want the unproductive to die? Such as the disabled or the elderly? True enough about the public housing, I'd say, but...

The welfare state did nothing but make the immigrants lazy and unwilling to work.

... this is just nothing but right-wing, zenophobic nonsense. There are plenty of examples of immigrants exploiting the welfare system and, sure, laziness. But to suggest these people are lazy spongers is blindness. Why would they be malcontent if they were happy just to laze around living off the state? You have completely missed the crux of the problem.

Had the system not been introduced, there wouldn't have been any segregation and only the productive and hard working would have stayed in France.

Or likewise had a better system been introduced.

 

[Astronuc]

The socialist economic policies killed business and contributed to the unemployment.

And under laissez-faire 'capitalism, many people lived in deplorable conditions. Just look at England or the US in the 1500's, 1600's, 1700's, 1800's and early 1900's.

Look at the writings of Charles Dickens, Upton Sinclair (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upton_Sinclair) or Ida Tarbell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ida_Tarbell) .

Now granted, socialism as manifested in the 'welfare state' has generally failed, but that is more a failure of implementation than of concept.

 

[sid_galt]

They're not Brazilian, so there's no precedent.

What do you mean?

If this were possible, I can't see why it would not have been employed already under zero tolerance law enforcement, suggesting it is not an option, be it for legal or political reasons.

I don't know about the legal reasons but I do know that the approach will work.

That isn't what I said. You need to read the words writ, not those emblazened on your inner eyelids after decades of propaganda.

You said that the Labor government hasn't been right wing enough to cause discontent implying that discontent is the fault of the right wing.

You make it sound like a traditional past-time. It's not - it's a recent phenomenon. It's all part of the same issue and, yes, the zero tolerance approach and the presence of riot police in the 25 selected suburbs caused the rioting to escalate.

It may be a phenomenon just 5-10 years old, but it has become a pass-time now.

 

[sid_galt]

And under laissez-faire 'capitalism, many people lived in deplorable conditions. Just look at England or the US in the 1500's, 1600's, 1700's, 1800's and early 1900's.

1. Yes they did. But in comparision to their previous lifestyles, they lived in a much better condition.
2. By capitalism I mean a system which recognized individual rights which only nearly existed in the late 18th and the 19th century - the time when the standard of living rose at an unprecedented scale. In all other eras, there have been a large number of controls by the state.
3. Capitalism is brilliant but it is not magic. You can't implement it in a poverty ridden world and expect it to solve the entire poverty problem in just a 100 years. No system in the world can do that.

Now granted, socialism as manifested in the 'welfare state' has generally failed, but that is more a failure of implementation than of concept.

1. It has always failed.

2. It is not a failure of implementation, it is a failure of concept.
Just like you can't continuously perform blood transfusion from a healthy being into a dead man and expect the healthy being to remain healthy forever, you can't expropriate the hard earned of the productive, give it to the good-for-nothings and expect to remain unscathed.

A welfare state punishes the productive for being productive and rewards the unproductive for being unproductive. This concept is an antipodal to justice. It is fundamentally unjust. If you implement it anywhere, it will fail.