Is Self Creation Cosmology a Viable Alternative to the Standard Model?

  • #51
Garth said:
What actually changes in the Jordan frame is the rest mass of non-degenerate atomic particles from which the http://pda.physorg.com/lofi-news-standard-silicon-mass_3244.html is made

I understand that, but it doesn't address the point. Our standard is at z=0, not z=6. The fact that its mass changes with time seems to be irrelevant. Our standards will not change significantly during the course of our observations and we can safely use it to interpret our observations at z=6, z=3, or z=2, as long as we account for the other changes in physical system (that is, G, the particle masses at z=6, the clocks, etc.).


To form the object discussed above about 10% of such a galactic halo mass of 10^{12} M_\odot would then be required to collapse right down to a black hole and quasar; there is about another 10^{9} years for this to happen.

The fine details I will have to leave to you!

That would be quite a task, considering that Pop III stars are thought to be limited to about 1000 M_\odot.

You also might want to look into trying to fit the WMAP data. Models without non-baryonic matter have been shown to be a very bad fit, particularly at the third peak.
 
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  • #52
SpaceTiger said:
I understand that, but it doesn't address the point. Our standard is at z=0, not z=6. The fact that its mass changes with time seems to be irrelevant. Our standards will not change significantly during the course of our observations and we can safely use it to interpret our observations at z=6, z=3, or z=2, as long as we account for the other changes in physical system (that is, G, the particle masses at z=6, the clocks, etc.).
The standard is at z = 0 in the laboratory 'here and now' on Earth. We out from our laboratory back in time to the limits of the universe and interpret what we see there by what we know here. The mass of that object was estimated from its luminosity:

\frac{L_E}{L_\odot} = 3.28 \times 10^4 \frac{M}{M_\odot}
so

M_E \geq 3 \times 10^{-5} \frac{L_q}{L_\odot}M_\odot

this is the standard theory mass, in the SCC Jordan frame we have to allow for a diminished mH and an increased G, so the mass necessary to 'contain' the quasar's luminosity Lq is:

M_E \geq 3 \times 10^{-5} (1 + z)^2 \frac{L_q}{L_\odot}M_\odot

This is the mass of a distant supermassive quasar seen as it crossed our light cone in the distant past. We ask what about a similar but much nearer quasar of equal amount of accreted matter, which we might observe as it crossed out light cone at a much later time and therefore much closer to us?

In the SCC Jordan frame, during the time between the events of these two quasars crossing our light cone, atomic masses increased, rulers shrank and clocks 'speeded up' all relative to the energy, wavelength and inverse frequency of a photon sampled from the CMB. The effect of that would be that the second quasar would appear to be reduced in mass by the \frac{1}{1+z} factor.

The difference between the SCC Jordan frame and GR is that masses genuinely do increase with gravitational potential energy, it is not simply an effect of measurement in an inconvenient coordinate system.
That would be quite a task, considering that Pop III stars are thought to be limited to about 1000 M_\odot.
In which case we need a merger of 108 of them, or 103 proto-halos of 108MSolar;with distances and velocities mentioned above this might take less than 109 years, but my hands are going like windmills at this point!
You also might want to look into trying to fit the WMAP data. Models without non-baryonic matter have been shown to be a very bad fit, particularly at the third peak.
Yes I have no expertise here except to point out that that intepretation is model dependent, I wonder what the third and other peaks look like in the conformally flat, 'cylindrical 'universe of the SCC Jordan frame?

Garth
 
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  • #53
Garth said:
T In the SCC Jordan frame, during the time between the events of these two quasars crossing our light cone, atomic masses increased, rulers shrank and clocks 'speeded up' all relative to the energy, wavelength and inverse frequency of a photon sampled from the CMB. The effect of that would be that the second quasar would appear to be reduced in mass by the \frac{1}{1+z} factor.
Again, I already know that your theory makes the first statement, but I don't see how it leads to the second. We've accounted for the increase in atomic masses. Are you perhaps referring to the effective time dilation that goes into measuring a "luminosity"? Remember that, in the standard model, luminosities are inferred with a time correction and redshift correction built in, so you should make sure that this is consistent with the corrections you expect in your model.
I have no expertise except to point out that the interpretation is model-dependent.
Yes, but the point is obvious, and most of the models that are significantly different from \Lambda CDM (e.g. relativistic MOND) have been ruled out at large confidence levels. Considering that the CMB is the strongest single test of standard cosmology, I'd say this is pretty important. Even without a detailed fit, you'll need to figure out how you could produce a large third peak in the power spectrum without non-baryonic dark matter.
 
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  • #54
SpaceTiger said:
Again, I already know that your theory makes the first statement, but I don't see how it leads to the second. We've accounted for the increase in atomic masses. Are you perhaps referring to the effective time dilation that goes into measuring a "luminosity"? Remember that, in the standard model, luminosities are inferred with a time correction and redshift correction built in, so you should make sure that this is consistent with the corrections you expect in your model.
Of course! Lq in my post above is the luminosity uncorrected for red shift. If the mass has been derived from the corrected cosmological luminosity then that effect has already been accounted for.

The (1 + z)^2 factor, which is a time dilation effect in GR and the SCC Einstein frame, is the variable mass and G effect in the SCC Jordan frame.

In the SCC Jordan frame there is no detectable time dilation caused by the curvature/expansion of space, hence no 'quasar variablity time dilation', red shift is a varying mass effect. The universe is static.

Consequently the most massive SDSS quasar has a mass of just 3 \times 10^9M_\odot as in GR, so we just require 0.3% of a galactic halo to collapse down into a black hole. [Note 0.3% is \sim \sqrt{10^{-5}}, equal to the 'overdensity' Jeans' mass factor]

I believe you may well be correct about the mass reduction effect. Comparing the BH with a solar mass both at z = 6 and then both at
z = 0 will produce such an effect, but as you rightly point out we are not doing that. :blushing:

Even without a detailed fit, you'll need to figure out how you could produce a large third peak in the power spectrum without non-baryonic dark matter.
Is that the same third peak around which the power spectrum data goes "a bit 'wobbly'"? :wink:

Garth
 
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  • #55
Garth said:
Is that the same third peak around which the power spectrum data goes "a bit 'wobbly'"? :wink:

From WMAP data alone, yes, but actually there have been several other experiments that did a better job of measuring the high-l multipoles and found a very clear peak (which is, by the way, consistent with WMAP). See the WMAP paper for the overlay with power spectra from other experiments. The third peak is detected at very high significance by several experiments.

I'll comment on the rest when I get back later. I could only think of one factor of (1+z) difference in the luminosity inference from the models. Note also that this doesn't solve the growth problem that arises from the low Eddington luminosity.
 
  • #56
SpaceTiger said:
I'll comment on the rest when I get back later. I could only think of one factor of (1+z) difference in the luminosity inference from the models. Note also that this doesn't solve the growth problem that arises from the low Eddington luminosity.
The standard cosmological luminosity takes two factors of (1 + z) into account, one for the fact that from an object at red shift z the photons are arriving less frequently by a factor of (1 + z), and the second because each photon carries less energy by a factor of (1 + z).

Your reference to "low Eddington luminosity" is where I became confused and assumed that you had not taken the (1 + z)2 factor into account in the luminosity. There is no further "low Eddington luminosity" effect in the SCC Jordan frame, it is the (1 + z)2 luminosity correction in GR.

Garth
 
  • #57
Garth said:
Your reference to "low Eddington luminosity" is where I became confused and assumed that you had not taken the (1 + z)2 factor into account in the luminosity. There is no further "low Eddington luminosity" effect in the SCC Jordan frame, it is the (1 + z)2 luminosity correction in GR.

Well, I should say "low" in the sense that your theory decreases the amount of matter the black hole can accrete, even if it doesn't increase the inferred mass of the black hole. I'm not 100% confident we've accounted for all of the quirks of your cosmology, but it's clear that this asymmetry between the masses of relativistic degenerate matter and non-relativistic matter still exists.
 
  • #58
SpaceTiger said:
Well, I should say "low" in the sense that your theory decreases the amount of matter the black hole can accrete, even if it doesn't increase the inferred mass of the black hole. I'm not 100% confident we've accounted for all of the quirks of your cosmology, but it's clear that this asymmetry between the masses of relativistic degenerate matter and non-relativistic matter still exists.
Well, I said I'm not sure I fully understand the behaviour of BHs in my theory!

It is necessary to solve the Schwarzschild solution with a SCC/BD scalar field in the strong gravity case and let the central mass collapse. I have not yet had the time to do that, and I'm not sure I would get it right even if I did without outside help.

However I do understand that in the case of high z BH accretion the amount of matter, i.e. number of atoms, a BH can accrete is the same as in GR, however the amount of mass is reduced because of the variable mass effect. There is no other red shift to worry about, so the effect of this reduced mass, and increased G, in the SCC Jordan frame is the same as the (1 + z)^2 red shift effect on the luminosity in GR . The two SCC/GR scenarios are conformally equivalent.

Thank you for the discussion it has been illuminating. :smile:

Garth.
 
  • #59
Not to take this interesting exchange off track, but, as Garth mentioned earlier, in SCC it rests on the assumption that the variability observed/observable in the optical part of the EM spectrum of QSOs arises essentially from just one component - the accretion disk.

Don't you, Garth, also need to establish that the jet, broad line region, etc are negligible contributors to the observed variability, in all stages of the quasars' evolution? Also, whatever the SMBH is, in SCC, don't you also need to establish - in some detail - the behaviour of the accretion disk? For example, no matter which theory (or combo of theories) is used to model such disks, the integrated emission includes significant contributions from very different (physical) regimes, doesn't it?
 
  • #60
Hi Nereid, yes a good point. It is instructive to note that of all the energy produced by matter falling into the BH of a quasar that roughly half goes into the jet and half 'falls down the plughole' into the event horizon and only a small proportion is emitted as radiation. The jet and consequent radio lobes are powerful emitters, however the time scale of variability, and the Hawkins paper was looking at between 1 week to 1 year, depends on the size of the emitter. My understanding is the jet is much larger than the disc, extending many 1000's of light years and the structure within it ~ light years across, so would not the jet vary on a longer time scale?

Of course it is claimed by Baganoff & Malkan, ApJ. 444 1995, Gravitational microlensing is not required to explain quasar variability that because wavelength is inversely proportional to temperature, which depends inversely with the radius from the BH, that the variability is not expected to show dilation. However Hawkins refutes this.

To make it clear, I do agree that you need to not only to understand the behaviour of the accretion disk, but also you first need to fully understand the black hole in the SCC theory. All I have been engaged in is some 'back of the envelope' calculations to see how the land lies.

My basic point is simply that if it can be established that distant S/N and GRB light curves show time dilation and the variability of quasars do not, then my suggestion is the significant difference between them is that the 'engines' of former class consist of non-degenerate matter and the 'engine' of the BH is degenerate. SCC offers a ready distinction in the predicted behaviour between the two classes.

Garth
 
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  • #61
SpaceTiger said:
Garth said:
Is that the same third peak around which the power spectrum data goes "a bit 'wobbly'"?
From WMAP data alone, yes, but actually there have been several other experiments that did a better job of measuring the high-l multipoles and found a very clear peak (which is, by the way, consistent with WMAP). See the WMAP paper for the overlay with power spectra from other experiments. The third peak is detected at very high significance by several experiments.
Such as here? (You have to press <Page Down> once.)

Garth
 
  • #62
Garth said:
Such as here? (You have to press <Page Down> once.)

Sorry Garth, I can't load it on this computer. Could you just summarize it briefly or give me a paper reference?
 
  • #63
SpaceTiger said:
Sorry Garth, I can't load it on this computer. Could you just summarize it briefly or give me a paper reference?
http://cosmologist.info/notes/Moriond2006.ppt
is a series of lecture slides by Antony Lewis of the IoA, Cambridge, England. The second slide shows the power spectrum and the WMAP3 data with Acbor, Boomerang, CBI & VSA readings superimposed.
Whereas the other experiments do trace the predicted \Lambda CDM third and even fourth peaks and beyond fairly well, the WMAP3 data goes, as I said "a bit wobbly". In particular the errors bars at l= ~870 and beyond do not even reach the predicted curve. I know that in this region the WMAP3 data has a problem with noise, but I wondered how those error bars were determined? Either the power spectrum here is less well determined than declared or there seems to be an inconsistency between WMAP3 and the different experiments and the predicted model.

Garth
 
  • #64
Garth said:
http://cosmologist.info/notes/Moriond2006.ppt
is a series of lecture slides by Antony Lewis of the IoA, Cambridge, England. The second slide shows the power spectrum and the WMAP3 data with Acbor, Boomerang, CBI & VSA readings superimposed.
Whereas the other experiments do trace the predicted \Lambda CDM third and even fourth peaks and beyond fairly well, the WMAP3 data goes, as I said "a bit wobbly".

That's right, WMAP isn't the primary constraint on the third peak. They use ACBAR, CBI, etc. to fit to the high multipoles, though none of the experiments (including WMAP) are inconsistent with one another. See the WMAP parameters paper for more detail.
 
  • #65
In their paper Cosmic Conspiracies Scott & Frolop point out:
The now standard vanilla-flavoured LambdaCDM model has gained further confirmation with the release of the 3-year WMAP data combined with several other cosmological data-sets. As the parameters of this standard model become known with increasing precision, more of its bizarre features become apparent. Here we describe some of the strangest of these ostensible coincidences. In particular we appear to live (within 1sigma) at the precise epoch when the age of the Universe multiplied by the Hubble parameter H0 t0 = 1.

Note that in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self_creation_cosmology linearly expanding model
R(t) ~ t, H0 x t0 = 1 at all epochs.

Garth
 
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  • #66
Garth said:
In their paper Cosmic Conspiracies Scott & Frolop point out:

:smile:

That paper is hilarious. Check out some of the references.

(and in case you haven't already, check the date of submission)
 
  • #67
SpaceTiger said:
:smile:
Cosmic coincidences
That paper is hilarious. Check out some of the references.

(and in case you haven't already, check the date of submission)
Well of course:
(Dated: 1st April 2006)
Douglas Scott = http://www.astro.ubc.ca/people/scott/"
Ali Frolop = April Fool ,
They were obviously sponsored by the Church of Scientology :biggrin:

H0t0 = 1.03 ± 0.04 needs no further explanation, but nevertheless is consistent with a linearly expanding model.

Garth
 
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  • #68
A question for my understanding. The fact that the theory contains a frame in which mass evolves and the universe is static, is this a direct consequence of conformal invariance, or is it also related to that principle of energy conservation in the preferred frame? What if you do not impose that second principle?
 
  • #69
hellfire said:
A question for my understanding. The fact that the theory contains a frame in which mass evolves and the universe is static, is this a direct consequence of conformal invariance, or is it also related to that principle of energy conservation in the preferred frame?
Yes, both, the conformal transformation is chosen so that energy is locally conserved. However, it is not an invariant conformal transformation, which is where SCC differs from other conformal gravity and scalar field theories.
What if you do not impose that second principle?
Then you are in another theory, if you now impose conformal invariance then you end up with either the standard Brans Dicke or one of the other conformal gravity theories.

Garth
 
  • #70
I was under the impression that in oder to claim that there exists an equivalent description of expansion, with static space and evolving masses, one has to rely on conformal invariance. It seams I am wrong. May be you could elaborate a bit.
 
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  • #71
hellfire said:
I was under the impression that in oder to claim that there exists an equivalent description of expansion, with static space and evolving masses, one has to rely on conformal invariance. It seams I am wrong. May be you could elaborate a bit.
A good point.

The real question is how do you measure anything - especially at astronomical/cosmological distances? How do define a standard unit and then 'transport' that unit across space and time to make the comparison?

In order not to be in an "Alice in Wonderland" croquet situation trying to hit a hedgehog as a ball with the head of a flamingo as a croquet stick, where the bat stick and ball keep moving, you need something that does not move, that is invariant across space-time. The foundation of GR is the Einstein Equivalence Principle (EPP) with the consequent conservation of energy-momentum and invariance of particle rest masses under translations across space and time. 'Atomic' rulers (made of 'steel') are 'rigid' and 'atomic' clocks are 'regular'. Any conformal gravity theories maintaining this principle must be conformally invariant transformations. Some have argued that such transformations result in just GR dressed up in some inconvenient coordinate system.

In SCC the EEP is replaced with the Principle of Mutual Interaction, here the two conformal frames represent two different invariances of measurement.

In the Einstein frame particle masses are constant and energy-momentum is conserved, however energy is not locally conserved. Atoms remain the standard unit against which mass, length (their size) and time (their atomic frequencies) can be compared.

However in the Jordan conformal frame it is energy that is locally conserved, the energy of a 'standard' photon (carefully defined) is constant and its energy, wavelength and frequency are the measures of mass (E/c2), length and time (\nu^{-1}).

In order for this to be possible the BD coupling constant \omega = -3/2 in which case the normal theory becomes degenerate and ill defined and the SCC conformal transformation of its Jordan frame results in canonical GR in vacuo.

Garth
 
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  • #72
Thank you for your answers, Garth. I am making an effort to understand this, but I still have no success.
Garth said:
here the two conformal frames represent two different invariances of measurement.
But how does this claim follow? To my understanding this implies a kind of unphysical degree of freedom (a gauge) that leaves physics invariant. However, you wrote that it is not an invariant conformal transformation.
 
  • #73
My thanks to Garth, SpaceTiger, et al for all the good links. Although this is more philosophy than science you might want to check out: www.self-creation.net[/url] and for a non-professional's 2003 prediction concerning WMAP3 data you might want to check out: [PLAIN]http://physics.about.com/b/a/2003_10_15.htm?terms=bb+electronics
aguy2
 
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  • #74
hellfire said:
Thank you for your answers, Garth. I am making an effort to understand this, but I still have no success.

But how does this claim follow? To my understanding this implies a kind of unphysical degree of freedom (a gauge) that leaves physics invariant. However, you wrote that it is not an invariant conformal transformation.
Thank you for that observation and question, sorry about the delay I have not had the time to answer properly until now.

First consider the Brans Dicke theory (BD):

The BD Lagrangian density, in which energy-momentum is conserved, is given by

L^{BD}[g,\phi ]=\frac{\sqrt{-g}}{16\pi }\left( \phi R-\frac{\omega }{\phi }g^{\mu \nu }\nabla _{\mu }\phi \nabla _{\nu }\phi \right) +L_{matter}[g]

where R is the curvature scalar, \omega a coupling constant and L_{matter}[g] is the Lagrangian density for ordinary matter minimally coupled to the scalar field, i.e.
\nabla _{\mu }T_{M\;\nu }^{\;\mu }=0 .
This ensures the rest mass of a particle m(x^{\mu }) , at x^{\mu } , is constant for all x^{\mu },

m(x^{\mu })=m_{0}

BD is a specific case of Jordan's general theory [Jordan, (1959)] and so this representation is known as the Jordan conformal frame (JF). However Dicke in 1962 showed that this Lagrangian can be conformally transformed into a form in which G is a constant and m(x^{\mu}) varies, which is termed the Einstein conformal frame (EF) in the
literature. The conformal dual is given by

L^{BD}[\tilde{g},\widetilde{\phi }]=\frac{\sqrt{-\tilde{g}}}{16\pi G_{N}}\left[ \tilde{R}-\left( \omega +\frac{3}{2}\right) \tilde{g}<br /> ^{\mu \nu }\tilde{\nabla }_{\mu }\tilde{\phi }\tilde{\nabla }<br /> _{\nu }\tilde{\phi }\right] +\tilde{L}_{matter}[\tilde{g},\tilde{\phi }]
where \tilde{R} is the curvature scalar in the EF metric \tilde{g}^{\mu \nu }, conformally dual to g^{\mu \nu } according to
g_{\mu \nu }\rightarrow \tilde{g}_{\mu \nu }=\Omega ^{2}g_{\mu \nu } in which \Omega ^{2}=\phi G_{N}

The scalar function \tilde{\phi }=\ln \phi is the BD field in the EF and \tilde{L}_{matter}[\tilde{g},\tilde{\phi }] is the EF Lagrangian density for the ordinary matter, which is now non-minimally coupled to the scalar field, i.e. in the EF \nabla _{\mu }T_{M\;\nu}^{\;\mu } \neq 0.

The principle of Least Action can now be applied to this JF action to obtain the gravitational and scalar field equations and the equivalence principle is guaranteed in this frame.

Conformal duality has also been applied to GR in order to include a scalar field as an additional source of gravity. (See, for example, Quiros' paper Dual geometries and spacetime singularities) In this case, in contrast to BD, ordinary matter is non-minimally coupled to the scalar field in the JF and it is minimally coupled in the EF. In this case the Lagrangian density in the JF is given by

L^{GR}[g,\phi ]=\frac{\sqrt{-g}}{16\pi }\left( \phi R-\frac \omega \phi<br /> g^{\mu \nu }\nabla _\mu \phi \nabla _\nu \phi \right) +L_{matter}[g,\phi ]
and in the EF

L^{GR}[\tilde{g},\tilde{\phi }]=\frac{\sqrt{-\tilde{g}}}{16\pi G_N}\left[ \tilde{R}-\left( \omega +\frac 32\right) \tilde{g}^{\mu\nu }\tilde{\nabla }_\mu \tilde{\phi }\tilde{\nabla }_\nu \tilde{\phi }\right]+\tilde{L}_{matter}[\tilde{g}].

In this case applying the principle of least action produces the gravitational field equation and the scalar field wave equation in which:
\tilde{\Box }\tilde{\phi }=0
i.e. the scalar field is decoupled from matter and Mach’s principle as understood by BD has been lost.

SCC adapts this conformal gravity action to include the original BD field equation. This is possible if \omega = -\frac32 when the scalar field drops out of the EF action and \phi becomes indeterminate, the principle of the local conservation of matter is used instead to fix \Omega and determine \phi.

Its JF Lagrangian density is therefore, (with \omega general),

L^{SCC}[g,\phi ]=\frac{\sqrt{-g}}{16\pi }\left( \phi R-\frac{\omega }{\phi } <br /> g^{\mu \nu }\nabla _{\mu }\phi \nabla _{\nu }\phi \right) + L_{matter}^{SCC}[g,\phi ]
the conformal dual, by a general transformation
\tilde{g}_{\mu \nu }=\Omega ^{2}g_{\mu \nu } , is
L^{SCC}[\tilde{g},\tilde{\phi }] =\frac{\sqrt{-\tilde{g}}}{16\pi }\left[ \tilde{\phi }\tilde{R}+6\tilde{\phi }\tilde{\Box }\ln \Omega \right] +\tilde{L}_{matter}^{SCC}[\tilde{g},<br /> \tilde{\phi }] [/itex] <br /> -\frac{\sqrt{-\tilde{g}}}{16\pi }\left[ 2\left( 2\omega +3\right) &lt;br /&gt; \frac{\tilde{g}^{\mu \nu }\tilde{\nabla }_{\mu }\Omega \tilde{\nabla }_{\nu }\Omega }{\Omega ^{2}}+4\omega \frac{\tilde{g}^{\mu \nu }&lt;br /&gt; \tilde{\nabla }_{\mu }\Omega \tilde{\nabla }_{\nu }\tilde{\phi }&lt;br /&gt; }{\Omega }+\omega \frac{\tilde{g}^{\mu \nu }\tilde{\nabla }_{\mu }&lt;br /&gt; \tilde{\phi }\tilde{\nabla }_{\nu }\tilde{\phi }}{\tilde{\phi }}\right].<br /> <br /> With m\left( x^{\mu }\right) =\Omega \tilde{m}_{0} where m\left( x^{\mu }\right) is the mass of a fundamental particle in the JF and \tilde{m}_{0} its invariant mass in the EF then SCC has \Omega =\exp \left[ \Phi {N}\left( x^{\mu }\right) \right], and we select the SCC EF by requiring G = \phi^{-1} to be constant, then the Lagrangian density in the EF is given by <br /> L^{SCC}[\tilde{g},\tilde{\phi }]=\frac{\sqrt{-\tilde{g}}}{16\pi G_{N}}\tilde{R}+\tilde{L}_{matter}^{SCC}[\tilde{g}]+\frac{3\sqrt{&lt;br /&gt; -\tilde{g}}}{8\pi G_{N}}\tilde{\square }\tilde{\Phi }_{N}\left(\tilde{x}^{\mu }\right) , <br /> which becomes canonical GR when \tilde{\square }\tilde{\Phi}_{N}\left(\tilde{x}^{\mu }\right) = 0 <i>in vacuo</i>.<br /> <br /> This argument can be found in the 2002 Astrophysics and Space Science paper http://www.kluweronline.com/oasis.htm/5092775 and the eprint <a href="http://arxiv.org/pdf/gr-qc/0212111" target="_blank" class="link link--external" rel="nofollow ugc noopener"> The Principles of Self Creation Cosmology and its Comparison with General Relativity</a>.<br /> <br /> IMHO I think both BD and conformal gravity have not gone far enough in modifying GR; the SCC approach may be wrong, and if so then it is surprising that it produces such a concordant gravitational and cosmological model, but the next and real test will be GP-B!<br /> <br /> Garth
 
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  • #75
I should have included, but I was trying not to make the post too long, that the key difference between SCC and BD/conformal gravity is the way \phi transforms.

A dimensionless quantity is needed that acts as the invariant of the transformation.

In BD/conformal gravity that dimensionless invariant is Gm2, conformal gravity theories then simply 'rewrite' GR in an inconvenient [and some would say unphysical (see On the Energy-Momentum tensor of the Scalar Field in Scalar-Tensor Theories of Gravity)] coordinate system and the change in m is only an artefact of this coordinate system.

In SCC the invariant of the transformation is the dimensionless Newtonian potential \Phi, which in the spherically symmetric case: \Phi = \frac {GM}{rc^2}. As a result Gm is an invariant, and masses 'really' increase with gravitational potential energy.
 
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  • #76
Thank you for the detailed answer and for the link to Quiros' paper. Conformal duality is a new concept to me.

In that paper it is written that "the choice G ~ 1/\phi, m = const., leads to the Jordan frame (JF) BD formalism". However, in your wikipedia article it is mentioned that the masses are constant in the Einstein frame. Could you please clarify the terminology?

The terminology is also unclear to me in this part of Quiros' paper:

In BD theory, for example, matter minimally couples in the JF so the test particles follow the geodesics of the Riemann geometry in this frame, i.e. JFBD theory is naturally linked with Riemann geometry. This means that EFBD theory (conformal to JF one) should be linked with the geometry that is conformal to the Riemann one (the Weyl-type geometry). For general relativity with an extra scalar field just the contrary is true. In this case matter minimally couples in the Einstein frame and then test particles follow the geodesics of the Riemann geometry precisely in this frame, i.e. EFGR is naturally linked with Riemann geometry and, consequently Jordan frame GR (conformal to EFGR) is linked with Weyl-type geometry

After reading this I got the impression that one may also define conformally dual solutions in general relativity. Could you help me to understand this paragraph?
 
  • #77
hellfire said:
Thank you for the detailed answer and for the link to Quiros' paper. Conformal duality is a new concept to me.

In that paper it is written that "the choice G ~ 1/\phi, m = const., leads to the Jordan frame (JF) BD formalism". However, in your wikipedia article it is mentioned that the masses are constant in the Einstein frame. Could you please clarify the terminology?
Yes, certainly.

Quiros is claiming that conformal transformations result in two equivalent descriptions of the same physical situation. He then uses the conformal frame to eradicate singularities.

BD is formulated in the Jordan frame, where the JF here is defined as that frame in which energy momentum is covariantly conserved, G varies and (in BD) mass is constant. Its Einstein dual is that frame in which G is constant and m varies, but energy-momentum is no longer conserved.

Basically you have two conformally related frames, what you actually label them is up to you.

Quiros' reverses the BD convention and has a geometric dual set of conformal Lagrangians of GR plus a scalar field. It starts in the Einstein frame (EFGR) in which m is constant and energy-momentum covariantly conserved but plus an extra scalar field, and then conformally transforms into the Jordan frame (JFGR). Subsequently this Jordan frame is used to explore the behaviour of the scalar field particularly concerning singulariites, while noting that here energy-momentum is not covariantly conserved.

SCC follows this latter approach of having an EF in which masses are constant and e-m conserved. However, having set \omega = - \frac32, in which any conformal transformation goes onto canonical GR, SCC instead selects the particular transformation that locally conserves energy, but not energy-momentum, in the JF.

The terminology is also unclear to me in this part of Quiros' paper:

In BD theory, for example, matter minimally couples in the JF so the test particles follow the geodesics of the Riemann geometry in this frame, i.e. JFBD theory is naturally linked with Riemann geometry. This means that EFBD theory (conformal to JF one) should be linked with the geometry that is conformal to the Riemann one (the Weyl-type geometry). For general relativity with an extra scalar field just the contrary is true. In this case matter minimally couples in the Einstein frame and then test particles follow the geodesics of the Riemann geometry precisely in this frame, i.e. EFGR is naturally linked with Riemann geometry and, consequently Jordan frame GR (conformal to EFGR) is linked with Weyl-type geometry

After reading this I got the impression that one may also define conformally dual solutions in general relativity. Could you help me to understand this paragraph?
As I said scalar tensor/JFGR theories do the reverse of BD; particles follow geodesics, (e-m conserved,) in the JF of BD but the EF of scalar tensor/EFGR theories. Photons follow geodesics in both frames.

Garth
 
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  • #78
Continued from the Gravity - Integrating General Relativity with "Gravitons" thread.
gptejms said:
Garth, can you include the logical sequence that led you to SCC ---a theory is never discovered in the way it is presented.

In 1964, at the age of 16, I was studying mathematics at an advanced high-school level ,and cosmology at an 'intelligent layman’s' level when I had what you might call a “vision”, or visual concept, of cosmological space and time that has never left me. Later, after gaining a mathematics degree, I had the tools to develop it.

This was a cosmological model I called “Radial Atomic Time cosmology” RAT for short! It required the universe to be spherical (positive curvature: k = +1) and expand strictly linearly with time (R(t) = t).

Through a friend at the Institute of Astronomy at Cambridge University it was shown to Martin Rees (who is now the Astronomer Royal). Martin Rees encouraged me to develop it and have it published but recommended that first I needed further study.

So I studied for a part-time MSc. in Astrophysics and Cosmology at Queen Mary College, London University, with the model as my project. I realized that earlier I had been naïve (obviously). Nevertheless the RAT put me on a trail to seek linear expanding models, which required modification of GR. I noticed the Large Numbers Hypothesis (LNH) could also lead to a linear expansion while the Brans Dicke theory (BD) modified GR.

My dissertation was called "On an integrated approach to cosmology" and sought to integrate GR, the LNH and BD. By now the linear expanding model had been put on one side. In this dissertation my modification of BD, itself a modification of GR, led to the first SCC paper in 1982. (The name SCC was only devised later)

Brans himself criticised that original theory in a paper published five years later. Consequently I put the theory to one side and continued in ministry at universities and colleges, meanwhile lecturing part-time in extra-mural and undergraduate courses in astronomy and cosmology. One evening whilst lecturing on Inflation theory and its resolution of the horizon/density/smoothness problems in GR cosmology it dawned on me that these problems would not exist in the first place in my original RAT model!

I was determined to rework my 1982 theory in order to overcome Brans' objection and a new theory emerged. That was in 1995. I took a further five years to work this theory into a coherent whole and another two years before it saw the light of day as ‘A New Self Creation Cosmology’ published in a peer-reviewed journal, ‘Astrophysics and Space Science’. (282 pg 683-730, 2002)

Starting with BD, which modifies GR to fully include Mach's Principle, I introduced mass creation by relaxing the conservation of energy-momentum as in all the SCC theories. In the new theory I included the local conservation of energy to constrain this mass creation by the Principle of mutual Interaction:"The scalar field is a source for the matter-energy field if and only if the matter-energy field is a source for the scalar field." Everything flowed from that.

After many years of working the final cosmological model turned out to be nothing else but my 'naïve' RAT model, everything had finally clicked into place!

The theory is eminently testable and falsifiable, although I hardly expected anybody to take it seriously enough to spend serious money on an experiment. It was therefore a surprise and delight to realize that, over the same 40 years that my theory had been gestating, another team around the globe at Standford university had independently been slogging away at developing the Gravity Probe B experiment in order to test GR, an experiment that incidentally would also falsify SCC! (See Alternative theories being tested by Gravity probe B

I realize that the above story scores high on the John Baez crackpot index!:biggrin: But at least the theory is falsifiable.

It has been a long time and the result should finally be known next year (April 2007). :smile:

Garth
 
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  • #79
It's difficult to follow such a long thread,so I've just had a quick look at your wikipedia article.A few questions that come to mind(of course many of them would be at the level of a GR (informed) layman):-

1.In your equation d^2r/dt^2 = -del phi,you seem to be using 3-acceleration,not 4-acceleration--why?--because phi does not depend on t?--but phi can depend on t.

2.Isn't adding the scalar field term a little ad-hoc?Physically,why should such a term be there at all?What does it represent?

3.What's so sacrosanct about the linear expansion---why are you after it in the first place?

4.If there is a thing called gravitational potential energy in GR,does it not make it non 'self contained'--you are borrowing the gravitational potential from Newton's laws(even the equation d^2r/dt^2=- del phi is borrowed).

Also,since the only manifestation of gravity in GR is that of curvature of spacetime(and motion is along geodesics),doesen't gravitational potential energy look out of place?

More later.
 
  • #80
gptejms said:
It's difficult to follow such a long thread,
I have moved this reply to the "Self Creation Cosmology thread.
so I've just had a quick look at your wikipedia article.A few questions that come to mind(of course many of them would be at the level of a GR (informed) layman):-

1.In your equation d^2r/dt^2 = -del phi,you seem to be using 3-acceleration,not 4-acceleration--why?--because phi does not depend on t?--but phi can depend on t.
That equation is the normal definition of the dimensionless Newtonian potential in units with c = 1. The gravitational force produces a 3-acceleration.
2.Isn't adding the scalar field term a little ad-hoc?Physically,why should such a term be there at all?What does it represent?
Mach's Principle - here SCC is following the Brans Dicke theory. Even without Mach's principle many alternatives to GR include a scalar field.
3.What's so sacrosanct about the linear expansion---why are you after it in the first place?
The linear expansion is not sacrosanct, it is a product of the SCC cosmological solution. However, it does then produce a very interesting cosmology see A Concordant “Freely Coasting” Cosmology.
4.If there is a thing called gravitational potential energy in GR,does it not make it non 'self contained'--you are borrowing the gravitational potential from Newton's laws(even the equation d^2r/dt^2=- del phi is borrowed).
I am 'borrowing' it from physical experiment actually, is there a problem with a concept consistent with observation?
Also,since the only manifestation of gravity in GR is that of curvature of spacetime(and motion is along geodesics),doesen't gravitational potential energy look out of place?
GR replaces a real Newtonian gravitational force with space-time curvature. This makes the concept of gravitational potential energy (i.e. the work done against the real gravitational force) in GR problematic.

The problem comes in GR when you try to locally conserve energy; where does the energy used in lifting a body from rest to a higher level at rest go to? Into the gravitational field? But in the momentarily stationary but freely falling frame that field is locally Minkowskian.

Einstein discussed the problems of fully including Mach's principle and the non-local conservaiton of energy in GR, Noether tackled the latter question early on and Brans & Dicke independently tackled the former one later, I have treated the two questions together.

Garth
 
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  • #81
Garth said:
That equation is the normal definition of the dimensionless Newtonian potential in units with c = 1. The gravitational force produces a 3-acceleration.

Ok,so that was a stupid question to ask.One is so used to seeing 4-vectors in relativity,that a 3-acceleration looks out of place.Anyway,the question remains--that you are borrowing the Newton's law directly rather than deriving it out of first principles of your theory.May be you can justify that by saying that you get the Newton's law in the flat spacetime approximation from your equations(as is done in GR too)--a'right,but that leaves something to be desired.

Mach's Principle - here SCC is following the Brans Dicke theory. Even without Mach's principle many alternatives to GR include a scalar field.

As I said you are talking to an informed layman as gar as GR is concerned--you need to explain to me how the scalar field helps take care of Mach's principle(provided you have the patience to do that!).

The linear expansion is not sacrosanct, it is a product of the SCC cosmological solution. However, it does then produce a very interesting cosmology see A Concordant “Freely Coasting” Cosmology.

Pl. list out the essential features of FCC.

borrow it from physical experiment actually, is there a problem with a concept consistent with observation?

No,there's no problem with that except that one would have preferred it coming out of first principles of your theory (or any other theory)--but you could call that a bias.

The problem comes in GR when you try to locally conserve energy; where does the energy used in lifting a body from rest to a higher level at rest go to? Into the gravitational field? But in the momentarily stationary but freely falling frame that field is locally Minkowskian.

If you do work on a body,the energy has to go into 'that body'---how can it go into the field(is that GR's position?)?Well,in Newtonian mechanics the energy goes into the gravit. potential energy of the body--either one has to introduce a similar concept in GR,or put it into the rest mass as you say.

I've a question here:-you hit a ball with a bat--it follows a parabolic motion(very easy to describe in Newtonian mechanics)--how do you derive the equation of motion in GR?Does the force applied get into the stress energy density tensor--how?

Pl. also give me a reference to the BD paper.
 
  • #82
gptejms said:
Ok,so that was a stupid question to ask.One is so used to seeing 4-vectors in relativity,that a 3-acceleration looks out of place.Anyway,the question remains--that you are borrowing the Newton's law directly rather than deriving it out of first principles of your theory.May be you can justify that by saying that you get the Newton's law in the flat spacetime approximation from your equations(as is done in GR too)--a'right,but that leaves something to be desired.
As with GR in SCC Newtonian gravity is used to set up the field equations in such a way that it is the first order approximation; in GR Newton is used to derive the factor 8\piG in front of the stress-energy-momentum tensor, in SCC it is used as well, with other requirements, to determine \omega & \lambda.

However once the field equations have been set up and actually the parameters are found to take on simple values, \omega = -3/2, \lambda = 1, then Newton does fall out from the first principles of the theory, which are: that GR be modified first to include Mach a la BD, and then BD modified to include the local conservation of energy.
As I said you are talking to an informed layman as gar as GR is concerned--you need to explain to me how the scalar field helps take care of Mach's principle(provided you have the patience to do that!).
I define Mach's Principle as: "The phenomenon of inertial ought to arise from accelerations with respect to the general distribution of mass in motion in the universe." Thus the inertial masses of elementary particles ought not to be fundamental constants but should be the result of the particles' interaction with some cosmic field. The simplest generally covariant field equation for such a scalar field is
\Box \phi =4\pi \lambda T_{M}
T_{M} is the trace, (T_{M\;\sigma }^{\;\;\sigma }), of the energy-momentum tensor describing all non-gravitational and non-scalar field energy and \lambda is some undetermined coupling constant of the order unity.

In BD, following GR, the equivalence principle holds and so the scalar field affects particles motion through changes in the curvature of space-time but not in any other way. Particle masses remain constant and the scalar field affects the measurement of G instead. \phi \sim 1/G and 1/ \phi replaces G in the field equation.

One consequence is Dicke's version of Mach's Principle, which states "The gravitational constant should be a function of the mass distribution in the universe"

In SCC it is particle masses that vary and G is measured to be constant. Requiring Newton as the first approximation determines \lambda = 1.
Pl. list out the essential features of FCC.
FCC = Freely Coasting Cosmology
The universe behaves as if there is no cosmological gravitational deceleration or DE acceleration. It behaves as if it were empty, i.e. the Milne Friedmann model.
R(t) = t and k = -1 throughout cosmological history.

This simple model turns out to be surprisingly concordant without Inflation, and with no acceleration it does not require DE either. Furthermore the baryon density instead of being ~ 0.04, is ~ 0.2 and so it identifies DM as baryonic in nature.

The essential difference between the FCC and SCC is in SCC
R(t) = t and k = +1. The change of curvature does not affect the early universe where matter-energy density predominates.

Furthermore, the 'conical-model' universe is conformally flat, as is the real universe determined by the WMAP data.
I've a question here:-you hit a ball with a bat--it follows a parabolic motion(very easy to describe in Newtonian mechanics)--how do you derive the equation of motion in GR?Does the force applied get into the stress energy density tensor--how?
There are standard GR texts that deal with this question. The force imparts a velocity to the ball which then follows a geodesic through curved space-time. The trajectory is the same under Einstein as under Newton. In SCC the geodesic is different from that of GR but there is a further scalar-field force acting on the ball that corrects for this.
Pl. also give me a reference to the BD paper.
Brans C. & Dicke R.H. Physical Review, vol. 124, Issue 3, pp. 925-935 11/1961
Mach's Principle and a Relativistic Theory of Gravitation

I hope this helps.

Garth
 
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  • #83
Thanks for patiently answering all my questions.

Is BD's paper(or the basic equations of the paper) available online somewhere?

EDIT:Though one question remained unanswered:-does the energy(of lifting) go into the gravit. field according to GR?If so,why?
 
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  • #84
AFAIK the BD paper itself is not available for free online, you can pay to download it from the link I gave above. However a brief introduction with equations can be found here.

There is no answer to where the energy goes, except to say "Into the field".

Lift a brick and put it on a higher shelf, it has moved from one potential level to another, but where has the energy used lifting it gone to?

On the lower shelf the brick disturbed the otherwise symmetrical Schwarzschild space-time around a completely spherical (for the sake of argument) Earth. After being lifted up it now disturbs the space-time at a different level. This change of disturbance is where the energy has gone, according to some.

However as I said above if the observer is on the higher shelf and falls off, momentarily they would be stationary yet in free-fall.

By the equivalence principle the space-time around them will now seem in the observer's frame of reference to be Mikowskian in a small enough region around the observer, which now contains a stationary but upwards accelerating brick.

So where has the energy gone?

The real answer lies in the fact that in GR energy is not conserved in general!

In GR the world lines of the brick in its two locations are at an angle to each other, not because of any mutual velocity, but because of the change of gravitational field - the r in the factor 2GM/rc2 of the metric has increased - and there is a mutual time dilation that affects the measurement of energy, which is detected by gravitational red shift.

However, my point in SCC is that this time dilation should affect the masses of fundamental particles as well - the De Broglie hypothesis - especially if in String Theory the masses are represented by the frequency of vibrations of strings.

While 'time-dilation' red shift is therefore undetectable as it affects the photon and the apparatus measuring it, the cosmological and gravitational red shift that is detected is then caused by the increase of the apparatus' rest mass with gravitational potential energy.

SCC equates the increase in inertial mass by GPE with the increase of mass caused by the Machian scalar field. Everything follows from this.

Garth
 
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  • #85
Garth said:
On the lower shelf the brick disturbed the otherwise symmetrical Schwarzschild space-time around a completely spherical (for the sake of argument) Earth. After being lifted up it now disturbs the space-time at a different level. This change of disturbance is where the energy has gone, according to some.

In that case,one has to quantify the energy change due to the change of disturbance and not just make a statement and shut up--hope they have done this.Anyway,the idea is interesting---so,do we conclude that the distortions of spacetime contain energy just as a field has energy?


However, my point in SCC is that this time dilation should affect the masses of fundamental particles as well - the De Broglie hypothesis - especially if in String Theory the masses are represented by the frequency of vibrations of strings.

Thanks for the news on de Broglie :smile:

While 'time-dilation' red shift is therefore undetectable as it affects the photon and the apparatus measuring it, the cosmological and gravitational red shift that is detected is then caused by the increase of the apparatus' rest mass with gravitational potential energy.

At the atomic level what happens to the energy levels(hence frequency of photons absorbed or emitted) when the rest mass changes---can check it up but leave it to you to answer.
 
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  • #86
gptejms said:
In that case,one has to quantify the energy change due to the change of disturbance and not just make a statement and shut up--hope they have done this.Anyway,the idea is interesting---so,do we conclude that the distortions of spacetime contain energy just as a field has energy?
I do not think anyone has calculated the energy change due to this disturbance. It is just a 'hand waving' explanation in GR to 'explain' where the energy goes to. As I said in GR energy is not conserved and the energy of a gravitating system is very difficult to define consistently in the first place. There has been much discussion on the subject in these forums.
At the atomic level what happens to the energy levels(hence frequency of photons absorbed or emitted) when the rest mass changes---can check it up but leave it to you to answer.
The rest mass increases with altitude, therefore the atoms at higher altitude emit radiation at higher frequency than those at lower altitudes.

The energy of the photon does not change, after all why should it? It has traversed curved space-time with no forces acting on it along a null-geodesic. No work has been done on, or by, the photon so why should its energy change?

When the photon emitted by an atom at lower altitude is compared with an exact equivalent emitted at a higher altitude gravitational red shift is observed. Of course the Pound and Snider experiment in 1965 absorbed, rather than emitted, the photon at the higher altitude.

Therefore in the SCC Jordan Frame, in which energy is locally conserved, gravitational red shift is interpreted not as a loss of potential energy by the photon but rather as a gain of potential energy by the apparatus measuring it. It is important to note that in this frame the frequency, and hence wavelength and energy, of a free photon is invariant, even when transversing space-time with curvature.

This argument only applies under the assumption of the Local Conservation of Energy, which holds in the Jordan Conformal fame of SCC. See gr-qc/0302088]The derivation of the coupling constant in the new Self Creation Cosmology[/URL] page 20 ff for details.

Garth
 
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  • #87
Drifted into other forums over the past few days.
However,to let not the inertia of discussion (and thereby some cosmic field!)break,let me ask you the following:-the cosmic field seems to obey an equation quite similar to the K.G. equation in the presence of matter(or other fields) and a wave equation in the absence of matter.Now is this a mere coincidence?Could the cosmic field be actually the K.G. field(or its sibling)associated with the distribution of mass?--in that case,it's quantum in origin!
 
  • #88
gptejms said:
Drifted into other forums over the past few days.
However,to let not the inertia of discussion (and thereby some cosmic field!)break,let me ask you the following:-the cosmic field seems to obey an equation quite similar to the K.G. equation in the presence of matter(or other fields) and a wave equation in the absence of matter.Now is this a mere coincidence?Could the cosmic field be actually the K.G. field(or its sibling)associated with the distribution of mass?--in that case,it's quantum in origin!
That is a very interesting observation...

One difference between SCC and GR is that in SCC a gravitational field, i.e. the presence of curvature, requires the vacuum to have a small and specific density (close to the Earth ~ 10-9 gm/cc) to make the solution of the scalar field equation consistent with that of the gravitational field equation. This limits the false vacuum density.

Cosmologically this becomes a moderate amount of DE (\Omega_{DE} = 0.11) and it therefore provides a natural explanation why DE is so small relative to the QM expectation and thus provides a solution to the "Lambda problem".

Exploring Klein-Gordon equations may therefore be the way forward to integrate SCC with QT.

Garth
 
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  • #89
An interesting discussion. I like the lifting brick example. I think the energy was always there. Lifting the brick simply loans the potential energy back to the universal gravitational field. The total energy of the universe, however, always remains exactly zero. Without gravity, a universe that contains matter behave very badly. Mach's principle does not globally conserve energy. . . which I believe is a local effect. GR, however, does globally conserve energy. This, again IMO, is where QT misses the mark. QT works well in the instantaneous subset, but fails miserably when pushed to the 4D model. Conclusion: QT is fundamentally unsound.
 
  • #90
Hi Chronos, good to have your comments!
Chronos said:
An interesting discussion. I like the lifting brick example. I think the energy was always there. Lifting the brick simply loans the potential energy back to the universal gravitational field.
How? The total energy, rest mass and gravitational binding energy, of a Schwarzschild gravitational field measured at (null) inifinity is simply the Kepler mass M. It does not depend on the distribution of that mass within the spherically symmetric shell.
The total energy of the universe, however, always remains exactly zero. Without gravity, a universe that contains matter behave very badly. Mach's principle does not globally conserve energy. . . which I believe is a local effect. GR, however, does globally conserve energy.
In what frame is this 'global' energy to be measured?
This, again IMO, is where QT misses the mark. QT works well in the instantaneous subset, but fails miserably when pushed to the 4D model. Conclusion: QT is fundamentally unsound.
Or the other way round? It is GR that does not conserve energy (a frame dependent concept), rather it conserves energy-momentum (a frame independent concept) instead, which only translates into a conservation of energy under very special circumstances.

Garth
 
  • #91
Garth said:
Hi Chronos, good to have your comments!
How? The total energy, rest mass and gravitational binding energy, of a Schwarzschild gravitational field measured at (null) inifinity is simply the Kepler mass M. It does not depend on the distribution of that mass within the spherically symmetric shell.In what frame is this 'global' energy to be measured?Or the other way round? It is GR that does not conserve energy (a frame dependent concept), rather it conserves energy-momentum (a frame independent concept) instead, which only translates into a conservation of energy under very special circumstances.

Garth
An interesting question Garth. But I do not understand your assertion that GR is frame dependent.
 
  • #92
Chronos said:
An interesting question Garth. But I do not understand your assertion that GR is frame dependent.
I didn't mean GR - it is energy in GR that is a frame dependent concept.

In SR two observers moving relative to each other would not agree on the total energy of a third body. Similarly in GR two inertial observers at different altitudes-potentials within a gravitational field would not agree on the total energy of a third body.

Let one inertial observer A be at the Centre of Mass of the Earth - freely falling yet stationary wrt the Earth. Now let a high up brick fall from rest, its rest energy/mass remains constant, yet it builds up speed and therefore its total energy increases as measured by A. Yet to another inertial observer B freely falling close alongside the brick its total energy remains the rest energy!

They would, however, agree on the rest mass, or rest energy, of the brick. This is the body's energy-momentum.

Garth
 
  • #93
To introduce a Machian element, neither observer [earth or brick bound] would be able to 'prove' which body was moving in a two-body universe. Of course, introducing a third body changes everything.
 
  • #94
Yes, motion is relative not absolute - even if there were three or more bodies present.

To make my example more precise, and to correct a false impression I may have created in post #92, if the brick was of negligible mass then its total energy as measured by observer A would be constant, taking A's assessment of the brick's varying time dilation factor into account. This is because there is a Killing Vector field for A's static Earth gravitational field. The two observers would make different assessments of the brick's total energy but both would be constant.

Where two measurements of total energy would differ between the two observers in the sense that one would remain constant and the other vary, is in their determination of the Earth's total energy.

To observer A at the centre of the Earth it would remain constant, however to observer B the Earth's total energy would increase as she accelerated towards the Earth. In B's frame of reference the Earth's field is not static and therefore there is no Killing vector to allow the conservation of energy.

My further point is to emphasise that the frame of reference in which the total energy of the brick is conserved is that frame 'selected by Mach's Principle' - that co-moving with the centre of mass of the system - i.e. A's.

Garth
 
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  • #95
Garth,

I have a question:-Suppose there are two identical atoms one above the other in a gravitational field(of the Earth say).The atom at lower height(call it A) emits a photon.Say the atom B which is higher is prepared in its de-excited state i.e. it's ready to absorb a photon.The question is:-will it absorb the photon emitted by A?

According to GR the photon is red-shifted,so it does not have enough energy.According to SCC,the photon is not red-shifted but the rest mass of the atom has increased(thereby affecting its energy levels--energy levels obtained from a relativistic equation e.g. the K.G. equation contains the term mc^2,where m is the rest mass).The energy gap in fact widens due to increase in m,so the photon is again not absorbed.

So in both scenarios the photon is not absorbed(though due to different reasons).This may be the true situation but it leaves one a bit uncomfortable--one would expect the photon to be absorbed.What do you have to say?
 
  • #96
Thank you gptejms for that interesting question.

Note: the expectations of this experiment is the same in GR and SCC.

In SCC there are two conformal frames of measurement, and the SCC Einstein frame in vacuo is canonical GR - so if the expectations were different in this case SCC would have a serious case of internal inconsistency!

The atoms of the absorbing medium would have thermal motion, so if the photons were only red shifted a little then some would still be absorbed.

If the red shift was cosmological then they would not be absorbed by the same transition, but of course they may be by another lesser energy transition. Why does this "leave you uncomfortable?"

Garth
 
  • #97
No,there is no thermal motion here--also consider only two level atoms.Anyway,this is not the important point.

Regarding what leaves me uncomfortable:-what one is effectively saying here is that a laser won't operate if the pumping atoms(..don't remember the terminology) are separated from the atoms emitting the coherent light/laser beam in a gravitational field.Could be true---it's worth testing!
 
  • #98
gptejms said:
No,there is no thermal motion here--also consider only two level atoms.Anyway,this is not the important point.

Regarding what leaves me uncomfortable:-what one is effectively saying here is that a laser won't operate if the pumping atoms(..don't remember the terminology) are separated from the atoms emitting the coherent light/laser beam in a gravitational field.Could be true---it's worth testing!
Yes it might be worth testing, somebody with expertise in that field will have to give a more definitive answer.

But certainly unless the emitting and absorbing apparatus are at absolute zero there will be thermal motion of the atoms concerned.

Garth
 
  • #99
Garth said:
But certainly unless the emitting and absorbing apparatus are at absolute zero there will be thermal motion of the atoms concerned.

Yes,of course.What I meant in my original question was that in the ideal case(where a delta function is emitted and absorbed by atoms)one would not see one atom absorbing what the other emitted if they were in a gravitational field.
 
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  • #100
Another question I wanted to ask you(something I didn't understand):-how does increase in rest mass of atoms translate to apparent red-shift of photons(which otherwise have the same energy in scc).You don't seem to be taking recourse to energy levels in your argument as I do.
 
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