Is Suicide a Fundamental Human Right?

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The discussion revolves around the complex and sensitive topic of suicide as a potential fundamental right of individuals. Participants express differing views on whether suicide is a personal right or an act that negatively impacts family and society. Some argue that suicide can be seen as a selfish act, depriving loved ones and the community of the individual's presence, while others contend that societal pressures and circumstances often lead individuals to consider this option. The conversation also touches on the moral implications of suicide, with some suggesting that it should be illegal due to its potential harm to the community, while others advocate for the right to choose, emphasizing personal autonomy and the need for societal support for those struggling with mental health issues. The debate highlights the tension between individual rights and societal responsibilities, questioning the ethics of intervening in a person's choice to end their life. Ultimately, the discussion underscores the complexity of suicide as an issue that intertwines personal suffering, societal expectations, and the moral obligations of both individuals and communities.
  • #61
An interesting formulation of natural rights was discussed in an ethics class I took a while back. I can't remember who made the argument, but it was made that any individual has the right to do whatever he wants with his person or property so long as he does not infringe upon the liberty of others to do what they want with their person of property. This is common, but the interesting part was that he included any act that permanently restricts one's own liberty (such as suicide or selling oneself into slavery) as an act one does not have the right to commit, the argument being that you cannot ever change your mind.

The problem occurs between the two boldface segments wherein restriction is first strictly limited to others, yet in the second part restriction is placed on self. There is exclusivity between others and self which makes holding both of those viewpoints simultaneously a fair example of doublethink.
 
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  • #62
"Life is good. Death is bad"

This seems to be the commonly held assumption. But upon inspection, life and death are seen to be morally neutral. However pain and pleasure are NOT morally neutral.
 
  • #63
BoulderHead said:
The problem occurs between the two boldface segments wherein restriction is first strictly limited to others, yet in the second part restriction is placed on self.
I don't see it as a problem, it is a condition, or an exception to the rule. A more common exception is
so long as he does not infringe upon the liberty of others to do what they want with their person of property.
 
  • #64
Hi,

If you tell someone that they don't have the right to die by their own choice, then they have the right to tell you you can not live by your own choice.

juju
 
  • #65
russ_watters said:
..you said the definition of suicide is self-murder, not self-killing.

Russ, I know you revere me now and will think less of me when I tell you this, but I was wrong; suicide does in fact mean self-killing. The Oxford English Dictionary says of the suffix cide:
1. a. F. -cide, L. -cda cutter, killer, slayer, f. cædre, in comp. -cdre to cut, kill, as in homicda, parricda, mtricda, frtricda, sorricda, tyrannicda, etc., slayer of a man, father, mother, brother, sister, tyrant, etc.; also lapi(di)cda, stone-cutter, etc. Most of the L. words having the sense ‘slayer, murderer’, have come down into Romanic and English, where new combinations have also been formed on the same type, notably regicide and suicide; filicide has also been used; and many occasional forms appear as jocose nonce-words, e.g. apicide, avicide, canicide, ceticide, muricide, perdricide, tauricide, vaticide, verbicide; or, still more ludicrously, birdicide, prenticecide, suitorcide, etc. Also applied to preparations destructive of animal or vegetable life, as algicide, fungicide, germicide, insecticide, pesticide".

Sorry about the mistake. My only defence is that my 'definition' was off the top of my head as an afterthought to a post I had just written. I promise not to be bad in future, and will be your friend for the next week if you like.
 
  • #66
juju said:
If you tell someone that they don't have the right to die by their own choice, then they have the right to tell you you can not live by your own choice.

Juju, just curious, but are you planning to pop your clogs?
 
  • #67
the number 42 said:
Juju, just curious, but are you planning to pop your clogs?

I've tried a few times in the last 35 years but never succeeded. Every once in a while I pick up the .45 and consider it. Haven't been able to yet.

If I had the proper drugs, I might just succeed.

juju
 
  • #68
loseyourname said:
Wasn't this supposed to be a discussion about whether or not a person has the natural right to commit suicide, not the legal right?
Yes, it was...
An interesting formulation of natural rights was discussed in an ethics class I took a while back. I can't remember who made the argument, but it was made that any individual has the right to do whatever he wants with his person or property so long as he does not infringe upon the liberty of others to do what they want with their person of property.
That's Locke. (and Boulderhead - if its a contradiction, its one that has worked quite well, as it is the basis of the US system of protected rights)
This is common, but the interesting part was that he included any act that permanently restricts one's own liberty (such as suicide or selling oneself into slavery) as an act one does not have the right to commit, the argument being that you cannot ever change your mind.
That is one of two reasons why suicide would be morally wrong (and the same as the reason an "elected dictator" is an oxymoron): the other is that it does infringe on the rights of others - someone has to scrape you off the sidewalk after you jump! :biggrin:
honestrosewater said:
That is a very interesting twist. However, assuming

1) the relevant liberties/rights are natural or inalienable rights,
2) natural or inalienable rights apply to all persons and only to persons,
3) the definition of a person includes "having life or being alive", i.e. once a person dies, they are no longer a person,

slavery and suicide are different because a slave is still a person, while a "dead person" is not a person; Slavery entails a contradiction in the system, while death does not entail any contradiction. Choosing slavery is different from choosing death.
Well, slavery is now seen as contradiction in the system, but at the time was justified by its proponents based on the belief that blacks were not people.

In any case, your example is interesting: jumping off a building would be immoral; hitting the ground wouldn't be.
the number 42 said:
Russ, I know you revere me now and will think less of me when I tell you this, but I was wrong; suicide does in fact mean self-killing.

Sorry about the mistake.
Ehh, no biggie - whether the entemology has cide meaning "kill" or "murder" or 8 different kinds of killing at the same time, the entemology is just the history and definitions evolve. But look what you started!
 
  • #69
Originally Posted by loseyourname
Wasn't this supposed to be a discussion about whether or not a person has the natural right to commit suicide, not the legal right?
Yes, it was. But accurate content is also an important consideration. Some people require simple facts be beaten into them before they stop telling falsehoods and remain politely (and tellingly) silent...


Originally Posted by russ_watters
Boulderhead - if its a contradiction, its one that has worked quite well, as it is the basis of the US system of protected rights.
Hmmm, the quoted material you put this below was not what I was finding problematic. In any event, what you bring up is at best unintentionally irrelevant and so I’ll pass on responding directly to it.


Honestrosewater,
The first part tells us it is only the liberty of others that may put a damper on the individual. But, this is clearly not the case when the second part is introduced because the individual’s own liberty now puts a damper on his own liberty (fascinating!). My ‘problem’ is; how are both ideas held simultaneously without engaging in doublethink when one clearly will not suffer the other?
It was said “he included any act that permanently restricts one’s own liberty…” but I do not see where it was included, nor do I see anything in the first part that might suggest or even allow for the second part. I am not saying it is impossible to think this way, but to do so should actually require a revision of the first statement so as to at least allow the second to be derived. Failing to do so, doublethink occurs (and does, all the time).
 
  • #70
BoulderHead,
Right, so revise the first statement. The state cannot infringe on a person's liberties except when...

russ,
BTW I wasn't saying that attempted suicide is immoral. I'm still figuring out the correct argument.
 
  • #71
juju said:
I've tried a few times in the last 35 years but never succeeded. Every once in a while I pick up the .45 and consider it. Haven't been able to yet.

If I had the proper drugs, I might just succeed.

juju

Putting aside your right to decorate your apartment with your brains, why the hell would you want to? I have the right to see Broadway musicals, but its not one I'm going to fight very hard for.
 
  • #72
the number 42 said:
Putting aside your right to decorate your apartment with your brains, why the hell would you want to? I have the right to see Broadway musicals, but its not one I'm going to fight very hard for.

As far as I am concerned, most of the time my life appears to me as a jail cell, cesspool, torture chamber, and insane asylum.

I have a whole series of physical, psychological, emotional and mental problems. The last doctor I asked for medicines threw me out of his practice and denied me the use of his clinic because I dared to ask for what I needed. This wasn't the first time I asked for medicine from some doctor and was denied.

I am not saying that I can't deal with it anymore. As long as I am alive, there is no choice. However, it gets more difficult as time goes on and I am really getting fed up with it.

So, I have two possibilities, suicide or keep on truckin'.

juju
 
  • #73
juju said:
So, I have two possibilities, suicide or keep on truckin'.

juju
No, you have three choices: suicide, keep on truckin', or try a different approach. I strongly recommend the third.
 
  • #74
russ_watters said:
No, you have three choices: suicide, keep on truckin', or try a different approach. I strongly recommend the third.

Juju, for once I agree with Russ, except that he probably means you should join the Jehovah's Witnesses or something.

Really sorry you feel the way you do. How would your life need to be different in order for you to feel happier?
 
  • #75
russ_watters said:
No, you have three choices: suicide, keep on truckin', or try a different approach. I strongly recommend the third.

I have tried many different third approaches like ceremonial magic, mysticism, meditation, religion, hard work, introspection, self-criticism, and many more.

They don't work. None of them work.

the number 42 said:
Really sorry you feel the way you do. How would your life need to be different in order for you to feel happier?

Since my experience with doctors precludes any medicine, the only thing that seems to help are illegal drugs and they are expensive, hard to get, and of course, illegal.

juju
 
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  • #76
juju said:
I have tried many different third approaches like ceremonial magic, mysticism, meditation, religion, hard work, introspection, self-criticism, and many more.

They don't work. None of them work.



Since my experience with doctors precludes any medicine, the only thing that seems to help are illegal drugs and they are expensive, hard to get, and of course, illegal.

juju

Juju, do you enjoy video games? For me, it helps a lot, gets my mind off any troubles, at least for a few hours. Anyway, just remember that your unhappiness is not your fault. Some people are just born with with a different brain chemistry. Can you see a different doctor?
 
  • #77
juju said:
I have tried many different third approaches like ceremonial magic, mysticism, meditation, religion, hard work, introspection, self-criticism, and many more.

They don't work. None of them work.



Since my experience with doctors precludes any medicine, the only thing that seems to help are illegal drugs and they are expensive, hard to get, and of course, illegal.

juju

Okay, they sound like the kinds of things you might try in order to achieve something. With respect, what I asked was how your life would have to be different in order for you to feel happier e.g. would you like to own a golden retriever? Or would you like to have a view of XYZ from your window?
 
  • #78
Hi Guys,

I would first like to thank you all for your concern. I appreciate it much.

At present I really don't want anything. All my desire and will is focused on not having to experience that which I don't wish to experience.

My experiences in consciousness and awareness have led be to believe that I will exist after physical death. I have experienced other realities (only for a few seconds at a time) and these experiences were in many ways more real than my present life.

This is really the only path I see open to me. Everything you mention might work for someone else, however it all seems like a trivial distraction to me.

Thanks again.

juju
 
  • #79
juju said:
At present I really don't want anything. All my desire and will is focused on not having to experience that which I don't wish to experience.

It works better if you put your back into experiencing those things that you wish to.

juju said:
I have experienced other realities (only for a few seconds at a time) and these experiences were in many ways more real than my present life.

More real than your present life? How do you spend the day? What do you do/have you done for laughs? Its your right to avoid the question if you want to.

juju said:
This is really the only path I see open to me. Everything you mention might work for someone else, however it all seems like a trivial distraction to me.

Doh! Trivial distractions rule! What do you think we are all doing on PF? Curing the world of gravity?
 
  • #80
Hey Juju,
I don't know what to say really, but I hope things do improve for you.
-BH
 
  • #81
juju,
What do you think is "the life worth living"? Or what do you picture life after death to be like?
 
  • #82
the number 42 said:
It works better if you put your back into experiencing those things that you wish to.

I have tried that, but the voices in my head (and body) sort of make it impossible. Although I do at times continue to try.

the number 42 said:
More real than your present life? How do you spend the day? What do you do/have you done for laughs? Its your right to avoid the question if you want to.

I get up. Smoke some cigarettes. Build my wood fire. Go out into the woods surrounding my cabin and gather wood. I saw, chop, and stack the wood. Go to my friends place and check email, do web surfing, and check the forums. Eat some lunch during this time. Go for a walk. Read or watch tv or listen to the radio or do more web surfing. Rest a while. Eat dinner. Feed the fire. Read or watch tv or listen to the radio some more. Have a snack. Go to sleep. That's my normal day. O, I talk to myself a lot. For laughs I tell myself jokes sometimes.

If you wonder where I get my money, I am on disability since I am really messed up.

juju
 
  • #83
honestrosewater said:
juju,
What do you think is "the life worth living"? Or what do you picture life after death to be like?

To tell the truth on these questions I have no idea. But, I will make a try at answering.

Life worth living would have two components. One is that I would enjoy it. The other is that it would have some worth in both the present and future.

I often think that the only world I could be comfortable in is one in which I had the final say on the general rules of society.

As for life after death, the way I see it is that death is the first direction home. The end of the beginning. If I actually exist after death, I hope I can experience it fully as a unique adventure into other realities.

juju
 
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  • #84
I do not know how to post a question! Help! I will check this.
 
  • #85
juju said:
Life worth living would have two components. One is that I would enjoy it. The other is that it would have some worth in both the present and future.

I often think that the only world I could be comfortable in is one in which I had the final say on the general rules of society.

As for life after death, the way I see it is that death is the first direction home. The end of the beginning. If I actually exist after death, I hope I can experience it fully as a unique adventure into other realities.

Well, I haven't found any reason to believe in life after death, so I haven't thought much about what it may actually be like. When I was 5 I imagined heaven as a huge playground on clouds instead of on grass and dirt. That's probably the gist of what my current image of heaven would be.

I have thought about what makes life worth living and have decided basically that life is like any other commodity in that it has no inherent worth but is assigned worth through use. That is, the process of living assigns life worth like the process of trading or warming assigns your firewood worth. Perhaps that sounds kind of sappy :biggrin: (get it- firewood, sappy, er, yeah)

Anyway, that doesn't mean your life is worth living, of course, you still have to evaluate its worth. It's a frightening process sometimes, for me at least, because it introduces the possibility that your life is worthless. When I evaluate my life I just try to be honest with myself and remember that I'm not contemplating action, just evaluating worth. Lots of good things can come from those evaluations.
I hope you would talk to someone before contemplating suicide. I don't know your situation, and I understand if you don't want to talk about it, but you can PM me if you ever want to. :smile: I have some problems similar to what you briefly mentioned, so maybe we can even help each other.
 
  • #86
juju said:
I have tried that, but the voices in my head (and body) sort of make it impossible. Although I do at times continue to try.

"Taking into consideration the many voice-hearers who were living successfully in society and were not considered sick, Romme concluded that hearing voices need not be the direct cause of disability"
http://www.mentalhealth.org/publications/allpubs/KEN-01-0108/resonance.asp

juju said:
I get up. Smoke some cigarettes. Build my wood fire. Go out into the woods surrounding my cabin and gather wood. I saw, chop, and stack the wood. Go to my friends place and check email, do web surfing, and check the forums. Eat some lunch during this time. Go for a walk. Read or watch tv or listen to the radio or do more web surfing. Rest a while. Eat dinner. Feed the fire. Read or watch tv or listen to the radio some more. Have a snack. Go to sleep. That's my normal day. O, I talk to myself a lot. For laughs I tell myself jokes sometimes

Sounds like you have the nice view I was asking about earlier. Did you choose to move there for some peace, or were you born there?

You obviously have some intelligence, but I wonder how much you get to flex it. Do you study, or has this been interupted? Have you tried distance-learning?

Hope you don't mind me asking questions.
 
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  • #87
honestrosewater said:
I have thought about what makes life worth living and have decided basically that life is like any other commodity in that it has no inherent worth but is assigned worth through use. That is, the process of living assigns life worth like the process of trading or warming assigns your firewood worth.

Interesting idea. Have you read Victor Frankl? Man's Search for Meaning is excellent. There are a few quotes here.
www.geocities.com/~webwinds/frankl/quotes.htm
 
  • #88
the number 42 said:
Interesting idea. Have you read Victor Frankl? Man's Search for Meaning is excellent. There are a few quotes here.
www.geocities.com/~webwinds/frankl/quotes.htm

I actually bought that book for my sister after reading the back matter. I've never read it though.
 
  • #89
the number 42 said:
Sounds like you have the nice view I was asking about earlier. Did you choose to move there for some peace, or were you born there?

You obviously have some intelligence, but I wonder how much you get to flex it. Do you study, or has this been interupted? Have you tried distance-learning?

Hope you don't mind me asking questions.

The place I live in belongs to some friends of mine. It is way out in the wooded hills. I live here and help them in their work at times.

I have a BS in physics. Went to graduate school for 3 months, but quit. They weren't teaching me anything new. The rest of my education was provided by life and my brain.

honestrosewater said:
I hope you would talk to someone before contemplating suicide

I have been contemplating suicide for a long time. it has become a permanent backgraound fixture. I guess it says something that I have not actually done it by now.

I wouldn't say my life is totally worthless. Some of the things I have done I am sure are considered by others, with whom I have done them or for whom I have done them, as being worthwhile.

I guess I can't say that it is totally worthless to me either. At least I have become a somewhat intelligent, conscious, and aware entity. That has to count for something.

juju
 
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  • #90
juju said:
I have been contemplating suicide for a long time. it has become a permanent backgraound fixture.

Surround yourself with things that make you happy. That's the only advice I can give without knowing your situation. I know, find the TOE, that should keep you busy :biggrin:
 

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