Is the characteristic function of the irrationals Riemann integrable on [a,b]?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the Riemann integrability of the characteristic function of the irrationals on the interval [a,b]. Participants explore whether this function, which takes the value 1 at irrational numbers and 0 at rational numbers, can be integrated in the Riemann sense, drawing comparisons to the characteristic function of the rationals.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that the characteristic function of the irrationals might be Riemann integrable and suggest that its integral could equal 1.
  • Others argue that the characteristic function of the irrationals is not Riemann integrable, citing that within any interval, both rational and irrational numbers are present, leading to points of discontinuity.
  • A participant references the Vitali theorem, stating that a bounded function is Riemann integrable if and only if it has a set of points of discontinuity of measure zero, which they claim the characteristic function of the irrationals does not possess.
  • Another participant reinforces the idea that both the characteristic functions of the rationals and irrationals have all real numbers as points of discontinuity, which is not of measure zero.
  • One participant notes that the indicator function of the irrationals can be expressed as one minus the indicator function of the rationals, suggesting this relationship as a proof of non-integrability.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally disagree on the Riemann integrability of the characteristic function of the irrationals, with some asserting it is integrable and others providing arguments against this claim. The discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference the measure of discontinuity and the implications of the Vitali theorem without reaching a consensus on the specific conditions affecting the integrability of the characteristic function of the irrationals.

AxiomOfChoice
Messages
531
Reaction score
1
The characteristic function of the RATIONALS is a well-known example of a bounded function that is not Riemann integrable. But is the characteristic function of the IRRATIONALS (that is, the function that is 1 at every irrational number and 0 at every rational number) Riemann integrable on an arbitrary interval [a,b]? It seems like it would be, and that its integral would be equal to 1.

But maybe I'm wrong. Anyone know for a fact?
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
No, the characteristic function of the irrationals on an integral is not Riemann integrable for the same reason the the characteristic function of the rationals isn't. Within any interval, no matter how small, there exist both rational and irrational functions. That means that there exist values of 1 and 0 in any interval. The "upper sum" between a and b is 1(b-a)= b-a while the lower sum is 0(b-a)= 0 for any partition. This is true for both functions.
 
I buy that. Thanks very much for your help.
 
AxiomOfChoice said:
The characteristic function of the RATIONALS is a well-known example of a bounded function that is not Riemann integrable. But is the characteristic function of the IRRATIONALS (that is, the function that is 1 at every irrational number and 0 at every rational number) Riemann integrable on an arbitrary interval [a,b]? It seems like it would be, and that its integral would be equal to 1.

But maybe I'm wrong. Anyone know for a fact?

The (powerful) Vitali theorem states that a bounded function f: D \subset \mathbb R \longrightarrow \mathbb R defined on a bounded domain is Riemann integrable IF AND ONLY IF it has a set of point of discontinuity of measure zero.

Now in your function you have that [a,b] is the set of the points where the function is not continuous. So it has no measure zero and is not Riemann integrabel.. unless b=a.
 
Indeed, both functions, f(x)= 1 if x is rational and 0 if x is irrational or g(x)= 0 if x is rational or 1 if x is irrational have all real numbers as points of discontinuity- which is NOT of measure 0!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Keep in mind that the indicator function of the irrationals is one minus the indicator function of the rationals. That seems to be a pretty quick proof.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
1K
  • · Replies 28 ·
Replies
28
Views
7K
  • · Replies 9 ·
Replies
9
Views
3K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
3K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K