Is the composition of the isometries a rotation?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the geometric descriptions of isometries involving rotations and reflections in the plane, specifically focusing on the transformations $\tau_v\circ \delta_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1}$ and $\tau_v\circ \sigma_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1}$. Participants explore the implications of these transformations and their geometric interpretations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that $\tau_v\circ \delta_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1}$ represents a rotation by an angle $\alpha$ around the point $v$, while others question the clarity of this geometric description.
  • There is a suggestion that $\tau_v\circ \sigma_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1}$ is a reflection about a line through the point $v$ that has an angle of $\frac{\alpha}{2}$ with the $x$-axis, though the exact nature of the transformation is debated.
  • Participants discuss the terminology of "absolute vector" versus "relative vector," with some noting that these terms may be specific to certain fields like Computer Graphics.
  • There is uncertainty regarding the angles involved in the reflections and whether the transformations are indeed around the point $v$.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the geometric descriptions of the isometries, with multiple competing views remaining regarding the nature of the transformations and their interpretations.

Contextual Notes

Participants express uncertainty about the definitions and implications of the transformations, particularly concerning the angles involved and the terminology used to describe vectors in relation to the origin and point $v$.

mathmari
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Hey! 😊

Let $\delta_a:\mathbb{R}^2\rightarrow \mathbb{R}^2$ be the rotation around the origin with angle $\alpha$ and let $\sigma_{\alpha}:\mathbb{R}^2\rightarrow \mathbb{R}^2$ be the reflection about a line through the origin that has angle $\frac{\alpha}{2}$ with the $x$-axis.

Let $v\in V$ and $\alpha\in \mathbb{R}$.

I want to determine the geometric description of the isometries $\tau_v\circ \delta_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1}$ and $\tau_v\circ \sigma_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1}$.

$\tau_v$ is the translation about $v$, i.e. $\tau_v(x)=x+v$.

After that I want to show that for $a\in O_2$ and $v\in V$ it holds that $\phi_a\circ \tau_v\circ\phi_a^{-1}=\tau_{av}$.
Let's consider the isometry $\tau_v\circ \delta_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1}$:
$$(\tau_v\circ \delta_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1})(x)=\tau_v(\delta_{\alpha}(\tau_v^{-1}(x)))=\tau_v(\delta_{\alpha}(x-v))=\delta_{\alpha}(x-v)+v$$ Is the total result a rotation? :unsure:

Let's consider now the isometry $\tau_v\circ \sigma_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1}$:
$$(\tau_v\circ \sigma_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1})(x)=\tau_v(\sigma_{\alpha}(\tau_v^{-1}(x)))=\tau_v(\sigma_{\alpha}(x-v))=\sigma_{\alpha}(x-v)+v$$ Is the total result again a rotation? :unsure:For the other question: We have that $\phi_a:V\rightarrow V, \ v\mapsto av$.

$O_2$ is the set of orthogonal $2\times 2$ matrices.

We have that \begin{align*}(\phi_a\circ \tau_v\circ\phi_a^{-1})(x)&=\phi_a( \tau_v(\phi_a^{-1}(x)))=\phi_a( \tau_v(a^{-1}x))=\phi_a(a^{-1}x+v) \\ & =a(a^{-1}x+v)=x+av=\tau_{av}(x)\end{align*} So it is done. Is this correct? Where did we use here that $a\in O_2$ ? :unsure:
 
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Hey mathmari!

Those are not geometric descriptions are they?
A geometric description is for instance that we have rotation with a specific angle around a specific point. 🧐
 
$\tau_v\circ \delta_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1}$ is a translation back by $v$, a rotation aroung $\alpha$ and then again a translation by $v$.

$\tau_v\circ \sigma_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1}$ is a translation back by $v$, a refection about a line through origin that has angle $\frac{\alpha}{2}$ with the $x$-axis and then again a translation by $v$.

Are these the geometric descriptions ? :unsure:
 
mathmari said:
$\tau_v\circ \delta_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1}$ is a translation back by $v$, a rotation aroung $\alpha$ and then again a translation by $v$.

$\tau_v\circ \sigma_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1}$ is a translation back by $v$, a refection about a line through origin that has angle $\frac{\alpha}{2}$ with the $x$-axis and then again a translation by $v$.

Are these the geometric descriptions ?

More or less, but I think we can do a bit better.
One step further from your description, we can say that the transformation $\tau_v\circ \delta_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1}$ converts an absolute vector to a vector relative to $v$, which is then rotated by an angle $\alpha$, and then converted back into an absolute vector, can't we? 🤔

The proper geometric description would be that $\tau_v\circ \delta_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1}$ is a rotation by an angle $\alpha$ around the point $v$.
How does that sound? 🤔
 
What do you mean by "absolute vector" ?

And at the second case we have the same but instead of rotation we have reflection?

:unsure:
 
mathmari said:
What do you mean by "absolute vector" ?

I've learned that an "absolute vector" is simply a vector relative to the origin that identifies a point.
As opposed to a "relative vector" that indicates that it is relative to some point.
Now that I look it up, I see that it is terminology that seems to be specific for Computer Graphics. 🧐
Either way, that is where a main application of isometries is.

mathmari said:
And at the second case we have the same but instead of rotation we have reflection?

Yes, but with a different angle, and it is not around a point, is it? 🤔
 
We convert the vector by $v$ then we reflect it by the line and then we convert the vector back by v. Or not? But which is the angle?
 
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mathmari said:
We convert the vector by $v$ then we reflect it by the line and then we convert the vector back by v. Or not? But which is the angle?
Doesn't the problem statement say: "reflection about a line through the origin that has angle $\frac α2$ with the x-axis"? 🤔

I'd say: $\tau_v\circ \sigma_{\alpha}\circ \tau_v^{-1}$ is a reflection in a line through point $v$ that has angle $\frac α2$ with the x-axis. 🧐
 

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