Is the Equality of Aleph Null and Aleph One Proven Through Factorials?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between the cardinalities of aleph_null and aleph_one, specifically exploring whether (aleph_null)! equals aleph_one. The scope includes mathematical reasoning and theoretical exploration of set theory concepts.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested, Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests starting by defining the "factorial function" for aleph_null.
  • Another participant describes a method to understand (aleph_null)! using the Cartesian product of sets and proposes finding a bijection from a product of natural numbers to the power set of the naturals.
  • A different viewpoint introduces a method of representing numbers in [0, 1) and suggests that this leads to a cardinality of beth_1, contingent on the Continuum Hypothesis (CH).
  • Another participant proposes comparing the infinite product of natural numbers to powers of 2, indicating that this suggests (aleph_null)! is equal to beth_1 without assuming CH.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between (aleph_null)! and aleph_one, with no consensus reached on whether (aleph_null)! equals aleph_one or beth_1, and the discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note dependencies on the Continuum Hypothesis and the definitions of cardinality and factorial in the context of infinite sets, which may affect the conclusions drawn.

Doom of Doom
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How might one show that (aleph_null)! = aleph_1?
 
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One might start by defining the "factorial function" for aleph_null!
 
Ok, so the person who proposed this problem to me gave me a way to understand (aleph_null)!.

So, consider two sets, A and B. Then |A|*|B|=|A x B|, where AxB is the cartesian product of A and B.

Thus, consider N_m={1,2,3,...m}, and |N_m|=m.

Then (aleph_null)! = |N_1 x N_2 x N_3 x ... |.

So how can I find a bijection from N_1 x N_2 x N_3 x ... to, say, P(N), the power set of the naturals?
 
Consider {1} x {1, 2} x {1, 2, 3} x ... as the base 1-2-3-... expansion of a number in [0, 1), then biject [0, 1) with the reals by your favorite method. You have at most a countable number of issues with rational numbers. which you can likewise deal with in your preferred method.

This shows that the set has cardinality [itex]\beth_1[/itex], not [itex]\aleph_1[/itex] unless you have the CH.
 
Or show that 1x2x3x4...is greater than or equal to 2x2x2x2x2... and less than or equal to aleph null^aleph null. Still, this only indicates the factorial is equal to beth_1 without CH, like CRGreathouse said.
 

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