Is the fabric of space displaced by a mass object in it?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of whether the fabric of space is displaced by mass objects within it. Participants explore theoretical implications, metaphors used in General Relativity, and the nature of spacetime in relation to mass. The scope includes conceptual clarifications and debates regarding the interpretation of spacetime properties.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants liken the displacement of space by mass to how water is displaced by a solid object.
  • Others argue that there is no empirical basis for the existence of a "fabric" of space, suggesting it is merely a metaphor in descriptions of General Relativity.
  • It is noted that while space can be warped, bent, and twisted by gravity, it does not possess kinematic properties like position or velocity.
  • Some participants assert that spacetime, rather than just space, is affected by mass, indicating that the analogy of a fabric may be misleading.
  • A participant raises a question about the nature of space before the Big Bang, suggesting a view that mass may create space rather than merely influencing it.
  • Another participant mentions "frame dragging" as a potential example of a situation where mass influences the structure of spacetime.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the existence and implications of a "fabric" of space, with no consensus reached on the validity of this concept. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the nature of spacetime and its relationship with mass.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the analogy of a fabric, noting that it may not accurately represent the complexities of spacetime as described by General Relativity. There are also unresolved questions about the properties required for something to be considered a "fabric."

webboffin
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Like water is displaced by a solid object.
 
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webboffin said:
Like water is displaced by a solid object.

There's no particular reason to believe that there is such a thing as the fabric of space. It's not part of the math, no experiment has ever been devised that might give a different result depending on whether it existed or not, and there's nothing that is better explained if it does exist than if it doesn't.

You'll see the word "fabric" used sometimes as a metaphor or analogy in non-mathematical descriptions of General Relativity, but that's just a metaphor; no one is saying that there's a real fabric out there that could be displaced.
 
Nugatory said:
There's no particular reason to believe that there is such a thing as the fabric of space. It's not part of the math, no experiment has ever been devised that might give a different result depending on whether it existed or not, and there's nothing that is better explained if it does exist than if it doesn't.

You'll see the word "fabric" used sometimes as a metaphor or analogy in non-mathematical descriptions of General Relativity, but that's just a metaphor; no one is saying that there's a real fabric out there that could be displaced.

But space can be warped, bent and twisted by gravity so it has physical properties and dimensions.
 
webboffin said:
But space can be warped, bent and twisted by gravity so it has physical properties and dimensions.
What list of properties must something have to be considered a "fabric"?

Spacetime can be flat or curved so it could be said to have geometric properties, and by the EFE it could be said to have stress-energy.

It doesn't have kinematic properties like position or velocity.
 
webboffin said:
But space can be warped, bent and twisted by gravity so it has physical properties and dimensions.

It is SPACETIME that is affected by the presence of mass, not just space. In SR and GR, they are coupled together. This is why trying to picture this as a "fabric" is inaccurate. An analogy can only go so far before it becomes nonsensical if one tries to take it seriously.

Zz.
 
ZapperZ said:
It is SPACETIME that is affected by the presence of mass, not just space. In SR and GR, they are coupled together. This is why trying to picture this as a "fabric" is inaccurate. An analogy can only go so far before it becomes nonsensical if one tries to take it seriously.

Zz.

Maybe I shouldn't take those space documentaries hosted by Morgan Freeman so literally.
 
was there space before the big bang?

I tend to think of mass not only influencing space, but creating it. so at the big bang did space race out ahead of mass or just ride along with it?
 
May be "frame dragging" can be considered as an example of a situation where something similar to what the OP describes is actually happening.
 

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