Is There a Connection between Choice Functions and ZFC in Lemma 5.9?

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter nomadreid
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Choice Functions
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the relationship between choice functions and Zermelo-Fraenkel set theory with the Axiom of Choice (ZFC), specifically in the context of a proposed theorem regarding the cardinality of distinct choice functions on a collection of non-empty sets. The scope includes theoretical aspects of set theory and cardinality.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a theorem suggesting that the cardinality of distinct choice functions on a collection of non-empty sets equals the cardinality of the largest element of that collection, based on intuition from the case of countably infinite sets.
  • Another participant questions the validity of the claim when the cardinality of the collection exceeds that of the largest element, providing an example involving aleph1 sets of aleph0 elements leading to at least aleph1 choice functions.
  • A subsequent reply suggests amending the theorem to state that the number of choice functions is the maximum of the cardinalities of the collection and the largest set, while expressing uncertainty about its provability in ZFC.
  • Another participant introduces a technical result regarding the cardinality of products of sets, referencing a theorem in ZFC that applies under certain conditions related to infinite cardinalities.
  • A participant acknowledges the reference to Lemma 5.9, indicating a specific focus within the broader discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the proposed theorem's validity and provability, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain unresolved.

Contextual Notes

There are limitations regarding the assumptions made about the cardinalities involved and the conditions under which the proposed theorem might hold, which remain unresolved in the discussion.

nomadreid
Gold Member
Messages
1,771
Reaction score
255
Is the following a theorem from ZFC?
Given a collection C of non-empty sets that includes at least one infinite set, the cardinality of the collection of distinct choice functions on C (as defined in AC) equals the cardinality of the largest element of C.
My feeling that this is true is from generalizing the case when the largest cardinality is \aleph0, where it seems that a simple proof is possible, but I am not sure whether it is true and, if so, provable (from ZFC) for higher cardinalities.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Won't the claim fail when the cardinality of C is greater than the cardinality of the largest element of C?

That is, if C is a collection of aleph1 sets of aleph0 elements, there will be at least aleph1 choice functions.
 
yossell, thanks for the answer. Good point. So, if I were to amend it, would the theorem be that the number of choice functions is max (|C|, |S|) with S being a set with the largest cardinality? Whereas this seems intuitively clear, is it provable in ZFC?
 
Given sets ##(X_i)_{i\in I}##, what you want is the cardinality of

\prod_{i\in I} X_i

For convenience, we set ##I## to be equal to a cardinal number, so we put ##I = |I| = \lambda##. It is a theorem in ZFC that if ##\lambda## is infinite and if ##|X_i|## are nondecreasing and nonzero, then

\prod_{i<\lambda} |X_i| = (\sup_{i<\lambda} |X_i| )^\lambda

See "Set Theory" by Jech for a proof.
 
Thanks, micromass. Lemma 5.9, to be exact.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
5K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 64 ·
3
Replies
64
Views
3K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
4K
  • · Replies 0 ·
Replies
0
Views
628
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
4K
  • · Replies 14 ·
Replies
14
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K