Is there a decidable set theory?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the question of whether there exists a decidable set theory, particularly in the context of known undecidable theories such as ZFC and the implications of Gödel's theorem. Participants explore the nature of decidability in set theory and its potential limitations compared to established axiomatizations.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that while Gödel's theorem indicates the undecidability of standard Peano arithmetic and ZFC, alternatives like Presburger's axiomatization exist, which are decidable but may lack the strength to encompass ordinary arithmetic or set theory.
  • There is a suggestion that any decidable set theory might be too weak to handle the complexities of ordinary set theory, paralleling the limitations of Presburger arithmetic.
  • One participant argues that while Presburger arithmetic cannot express certain general theorems, it can still perform practical arithmetic operations, raising the possibility that a decidable set theory might similarly allow for practical applications despite its limitations.
  • Another participant introduces the idea that any inconsistent theory is trivially decidable, as all statements would follow from the inconsistency.
  • A participant discusses the relationship between decidability and proof length, proposing that for any "reasonable" reasoning system, there exists a recursive function that bounds the minimum proof-lengths of statements, suggesting implications for the limitations of such systems.
  • There is a reiteration of the idea that a reasoning system may fail to prove certain statements due to inherent limitations, although the specific nature of these limitations remains unclear.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility and implications of a decidable set theory, with no consensus reached on whether such a theory could exist or what its characteristics might be.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the limitations of existing axiomatizations and the implications of undecidability, but specific assumptions and definitions remain unresolved, particularly regarding the nature of decidability in set theory.

Demystifier
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The Godel theorem shows that the standard Peano axiomatization or arithmetic is undecidable. However, there is an alternative Presburger's axiomatization of arithmetic, which is decidable.

Similarly, the standard ZFC axiomatization of set theory is undecidable. For instance, the continuum hypothesis is undecidable in ZFC. Is there an alternative axiomatization of set theory which is decidable?
 
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Presburger's is decidable, but it is too weak to do ordinary arithmetic. I suspect that if it exists a decidable set theory would be too weak to do ordinary set theory.
 
By Presburger arithmetic you cannot state certain general theorems, but I think you can still do arithmetic in a practical sense. (For instance, you can compute concrete products such as ##2\times 6=12##. Any 7 year old kid can do it without knowing Peano axioms.) Perhaps something similar might be true with decidable set theory.
 
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While this does not answer the actual technical part of your question, it is probably of some (tangential) relevance (because of being related to decidability and proof length).

The somewhat trivial (and non-technical) observation is that consider all well-formed statements (that are suppose to have true or false values) of length n that can be formed in some "reasonable" reasoning system. Also suppose that all the well-formed statements are also decidable in the system (using some agreed and/or given rules of inference as part of the reasoning system).

For some statement S, suppose we define the minimum proof-length as the length of the shortest proof of S. Let T(n) denote the maximum value among the minimum proof-lengths for all statements of length n or less. Then T(n) has to be strictly bounded by some recursive function.

For example, think of example of Presburger arithmetic mentioned above. Then I am pretty sure there is a recursive function that would bound the minimum proof-lengths (as mentioned in previous paragraph) for a given length of statements cast in the system (as questions with truth values). And I would suspect that recursive function wouldn't really grow that much faster than much of elementary functions encountered in normal math (possibly hovering somewhere little above or below (more likely below) ackermann function).

So the inability of a "reasonable" reasoning system (PA should count I think because it can't answer some of its own questions) to cast questions that it itself can't answer can also be seen in this way ... The reasoning system should fail to prove certain statements of length n or less (that it can cast as questions) because it would completely stop proving "any" statement of length n or less after f(n) number of steps (where f is some recursive function). I don't have any good idea what that function would be for PA though.
 
SSequence said:
So the inability of a "reasonable" reasoning system (PA should count I think because it can't answer some of its own questions) to cast questions that it itself can't answer can also be seen in this way ... The reasoning system should fail to prove certain statements of length n or less (that it can cast as questions) because it would completely stop proving "any" statement of length n or less after f(n) number of steps (where f is some recursive function). I don't have any good idea what that function would be for PA though.
Sorry I think this particular part can't be assumed beforehand (under the more generic assumption of theorems being recursively enumerable).
 

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