Is There a Weak Repulsive Force of Empty Space in the Universe?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of a potential weak repulsive force of empty space in the universe and its implications for cosmic structures, gravity, and the expansion of the universe. Participants explore analogies from fluid dynamics and patterns observed in nature to propose and challenge the existence of such a force.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the structure of the universe resembles the foam created by ocean waves, proposing that empty space may exert a weak repulsive force that influences the formation of cosmic structures.
  • Another participant references dark energy and its role in the accelerating expansion of the universe, noting that while it may seem like a form of repulsion, it does not alter the attractive nature of gravity.
  • A different participant draws parallels between cosmic structures and convection cells in fluids, questioning whether similar upwelling and downwelling phenomena could explain the organization of galaxies and voids in space.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the necessity of a weak repulsive force, with one stating that the growth of voids is a natural consequence of cosmic expansion without needing to invoke additional forces.
  • There are references to external resources, including academic papers and videos, that discuss patterns in nature and their potential relevance to the topic.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the existence of a weak repulsive force of empty space. Some propose its existence based on analogies and observations, while others argue against it, suggesting that current observations can be explained without such a force.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the scale at which cosmic voids occur and express uncertainty regarding the implications of this scale on the proposed repulsive force. There is also mention of the complexity of gravitational interactions and the role of dark energy in cosmic expansion.

jadrian
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when i see 3d images of the webbed shaped structure of the universe, such as clusters and strands, the strands meeting in superclusters, i can't get away from how identical this looks to a reduced dimension view of the upwelling of water after a wave crashes. the foam from the ocean, which you could regard as matter, goes with the flow away from the upwelling water and accumulates in rings where downwelling occurs, and where the strands and rings of foam meet up, there are the largest accumlations of foam in the largest downwelling areas. the foam accummulations in the downwelling zones seems apparently identical to the strands and rings and (in 3d, webs) of matter that are observed in the universe.

so is it possible that empty space on a very large scale has a weakly repulsive force that forces matter in the universe to form rings of matter encircling these cosmic voids the same way upwelling pushes foam in ocean waves to form strands rings in downwelling zones which encircle the upwelling zones?

also, is this possible repulsivity of empty space explain the weakness of gravity, because this effect only seems to appear in cosmic voids where there is an extreme volume of empty space, the effect being that the cosmic voids repel matter to the outskirts to form strands of galaxies and webbed rings surrounding the cosmic voids.

also, could the weakness of gravity and the weakness of this supposed repulsive force of result in a zero sum? ie meaning gravity and empty space repulsivity cancel each other out?

also could this repulsivity of empty space account for the universes accelleration of expansion?

im posting this picture to help with the visualization of upwelling and downwelling in water which causes divergence as well as convergence on the surface.

http://www.redmap.org.au/uploads/image/upwelling-downwelling%20figure%20350.jpg
 
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Extract from the Wiki page on dark energy
This accelerating expansion effect is sometimes labeled "gravitational repulsion", which is a colorful but possibly confusing expression. In fact a negative pressure does not influence the gravitational interaction between masses—which remains attractive—but rather alters the overall evolution of the universe at the cosmological scale, typically resulting in the accelerating expansion of the universe despite the attraction among the masses present in the universe.

I don't know whether this fits what you are proposing I think the above scenario could fit the observed structure. Certainly, some degree of 'clumping' would happen with the clumps moving apart in the expansion flow.
 


A similar thought occurred to me a while ago, but I was inspired more by the convection cells seen in a simmering pan of water or in pictures of the surface of the Sun. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rayleigh–Bénard_convection . These cells self organise into a stable honeycomb pattern which is most clearly seen in the patterns left in the mud of a pond that has dried up. I too wondered if there was something upwelling in the voids of space and sinking in the borders of the voids giving rise to the strings and walls of stars and galaxies seen in the 3D organisation of space and if there was any connection to the expansion of space.
 


jadrian said:
foam

There's a series of videos on youtube called "Sixty Symbols". In one, a physicist talks about the appearance of repeating patterns in nature, such as those formed by dried mud cracking. I don't recall the title or the other examples but I'm pretty sure he brings up the pattern of filaments in it.
 


Mentz114 said:
Extract from the Wiki page on dark energy


I don't know whether this fits what you are proposing I think the above scenario could fit the observed structure. Certainly, some degree of 'clumping' would happen with the clumps moving apart in the expansion flow.

so in your view is there a weak repulsive force of empty space?
because these voids only occur on a truly gigantic scale, it makes me feel that there must be a very weak repulsivity of massless space. otherwize i thinnk you would find voids on a smaller scale throughout the universe
 


jadrian said:
so in your view is there a weak repulsive force of empty space?
because these voids only occur on a truly gigantic scale, it makes me feel that there must be a very weak repulsivity of massless space. otherwize i thinnk you would find voids on a smaller scale throughout the universe

No, I don't hold the view that there is a weak repulsive force of empty space. It does not seem necessary to invoke such a thing to explain observations.

Once a void exists it will inevitably grow larger because of the expansion flow.

The paper and other link given by atyy above are a good starting point.
 

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