Is there any real difference between reality and a dream?

[the_awesome]

You dream what you experience.

Exactly. So are dreams are merely experiences - things that have happened in the past, and things that you alter while beings unconscious. So what is reality then? Well...reality exists even without your conscious mind. You don't need to observe something in order for it to exist. But you need to experience something in order for it to have existed (a dream).

 

[Freeman Dyson]

Exactly. So are dreams are merely experiences - things that have happened in the past, and things that you alter while beings unconscious. So what is reality then? Well...reality exists even without your conscious mind. You don't need to observe something in order for it to exist. But you need to experience something in order for it to have existed (a dream).

We don't know for that sure. We probably won't know until we can actually project dreams on a screen. Right now, you just have to rely on what the dreamer tells you was in their dream. Which obviously isn't very scientific.

 

[Freeman Dyson]

On this same page, I said the following:



So are you at all reading my posts before replying?





"Know" is a strong word, you can never prove this assertion. You assert that when one is asleep, his consciousness is somehow functioning apart from one's brain.

You are conscious during dreams. Or else you wouldn't remember them. You could almost say that in dreams, you are conscious of the unconscious. There has to be some consciousness. Lucid dreams are totally conscious and can signal the outside world through preestablished patterns, like eye blinking. That's how the first neuroscientist proved lucid dreaming.

Your mind knows what is up when it is sleeping. Some part of it does anyway. It has some inkling of what is going on in reality. It can detect signal among the noise. You are more likely to wake up when your name is called than somebody else's for example.

"Stephen: Basically, people were thinking of the dream as a product of the unconscious mind, and of Freud’s idea that the dream is the royal road to the unconscious. From that they seemed to develop the mistaken idea that dreams are themselves unconscious somehow, but they’re not, they’re conscious experiences, otherwise you couldn’t report them. It’s true that the source of dreams is largely unconscious and we don’t know why things happen in the typical dream. In that sense much of the dream content is unconsciously determined but that doesn’t mean that the experience is unconscious"

I am very interested in the intuition and spur of genius that has been reported from dreams. Wolfgang Pauli was big on dreams and claimed they gave him fantastic insight into his science. Things he never considered in his waking life. Einstein was also big on intuition and was inspired by his dreams.

 

[DaveC426913]

You are conscious during dreams. Or else you wouldn't remember them.

Are you merely stating your personal opinion on this or you do have something to back it up?

Because, I believe the state of sleep - whether dreaming or otherwise - is generally considered not conscious.

 

[Sorry!]

@WaveJumper:
There are of course multiple theories on the function of dreams the most prevelant one now though is that the brain uses it as a way to make lifes events less traumatic and to make the brain function more efficiently in traumatic situations. This theory was put forward a Finnish scientist who I have forgotten the name of.

Another prevelant theory is that we dream about the previous days unfulfilled emotional arousals. So when we wake up the next day we wake up less stressed than the previous day.

 

[Freeman Dyson]

Are you merely stating your personal opinion on this or you do have something to back it up?

Because, I believe the state of sleep - whether dreaming or otherwise - is generally considered not conscious.

I quoted this guy:

Stephen LaBerge is a psychophysiologist and a leader in the scientific study of lucid dreaming.

His technique of signalling to a collaborator monitoring his EEG with agreed-upon eye movements during REM became the first published, scientifically-verified signal from a dreamer's mind to the outside world.

Stephen: Basically, people were thinking of the dream as a product of the unconscious mind, and of Freud’s idea that the dream is the royal road to the unconscious. From that they seemed to develop the mistaken idea that dreams are themselves unconscious somehow, but they’re not, they’re conscious experiences, otherwise you couldn’t report them. It’s true that the source of dreams is largely unconscious and we don’t know why things happen in the typical dream. In that sense much of the dream content is unconsciously determined but that doesn’t mean that the experience is unconscious.

http://www.futurehi.net/docs/Laberge_WakingDreamer.html

 

[DaveC426913]

I'm sure there's more to his claim than what you've quoted. I hope there is, because this:

I quoted this guy:
...they’re conscious experiences, otherwise you couldn’t report them.

is just silly logic.

 

[Freeman Dyson]

I'm sure there's more to his claim than what you've quoted. I hope there is, because this:

is just silly logic.

How so? What other unconscious experiences have you ever reported?

 

[DaveC426913]

How so? What other unconscious experiences have you ever reported?

Well, dreams.

You can't use circular logic to demonstrate that dreams are a conscious experience. The burden is on you to show that dreams are a conscious experience.

How does reporting chan ge anything? I am reporting the memory of the dream.

 

[Freeman Dyson]

There are different levels of conscious here. Conscious as in self aware. Or conscious as in being able to perceive. My cat is conscious in the sense that he can perceive. But he is not self aware. So I say all dreams are conscious because were are perceving things, and then remembering these perceptions.

Have you ever had a dream where you knew you were dreaming? Can you think in your dreams? Reason? The reasoning may be flawed but you can still do it. You try to problem solve in dreams.

Conscious#

1. Having an awareness of one's environment and one's own existence, sensations, and thoughts. See synonyms at aware.

A: Mentally perceptive or alert; awake: The patient remained fully conscious after the local anesthetic was administered.

2. Capable of thought, will, or perception: the development of conscious

 

[DaveC426913]

There are different levels of conscious here. Conscious as in self aware. Or conscious as in being able to perceive. My cat is conscious in the sense that he can perceive. But he is not self aware. So I say all dreams are conscious because were are perceving things, and then remembering these perceptions.

Have you ever had a dream where you knew you were dreaming?

Conscious#

1. Having an awareness of one's environment and one's own existence, sensations, and thoughts. See synonyms at aware.
2. Mentally perceptive or alert; awake: The patient remained fully conscious after the local anesthetic was administered.

# Capable of thought, will, or perception: the development of conscious

None of this demonstrates that a dream is a conscious state as opposed to an unconscious state (which is the crux of our disagreement). You have to also demonstrate that the unconscious state does not include any of the elements found in dreaming.


I must go to bed now. Do not say anything interesting for 8 more hours.

 

[the_awesome]

There are different levels of conscious here. Conscious as in self aware. Or conscious as in being able to perceive. My cat is conscious in the sense that he can perceive. But he is not self aware. So I say all dreams are conscious because were are perceving things, and then remembering these perceptions.

What about animals and emotions in dreams? I've watched my dog whimper while asleep - perhaps because she was dreaming of her fellow brothers and sisters?

Maybe a dream unifies the body, mind, and spirit. It provides you with insight into ourselves and a means for self-exploration. But if that were true, then would the animal have a spirit?

Or maybe you are in some form of a conscious state...one which is yet to be defined? When you dream of falling, you wake up before you hit the ground. You are conscious in knowing that when you hit the ground its gunna hurt. But your mind is "tricked" into thinking it is real. We know that when you sleep...your mind switches off many of its functions. Functions which could be crucial in recognizing that the world we see (in a dream), is actually complete ********. Or maybe its your brain creating an illusion? We all know how easily your eyes can be tricked.

 

[ninar]

Typically it will be said we are unconscious during sleep, but I think that's just the naming, we do have different states of perception, in which different processes dominate our activities. The discussion just seems pointless to me, the ways of mind is so complex... depending of its estructure, capabilities, and limitations, it will direct, control, purge, reorganize, etc. info and activities in a way that suits best the ocasion... simply put: we are sometimes kinda*: conscious while we sleep; asleep when we are late at night studying; in a coma-like state when we are passed out on alcohol, etc. And even, sometimes, a combination of all those, in different magnitudes.

 

[the_awesome]

Typically it will be said we are unconscious during sleep, but I think that's just the naming, we do have different states of perception, in which different processes dominate our activities. The discussion just seems pointless to me, the ways of mind is so complex... depending of its estructure, capabilities, and limitations, it will direct, control, purge, reorganize, etc. info and activities in a way that suits best the ocasion... simply put: we are kinda* conscious while we sleep; we are kinda* asleep when we are late at night studying; we are kinda* in a coma-like state when we are passed out on alcohol, etc.

Well put :)

 

[DaveC426913]

Typically it will be said we are unconscious during sleep, but I think that's just the naming, we do have different states of perception, in which different processes dominate our activities. The discussion just seems pointless to me, the ways of mind is so complex...

That's kind of like saying molecules are so complex there's little point in naming them. Or animals. Or star formation. your suggestion is that we just give up.

 

[DaveC426913]

None of this demonstrates that a dream is a conscious state as opposed to an unconscious state (which is the crux of our disagreement). You have to also demonstrate that the unconscious state does not include any of the elements found in dreaming.


I must go to bed now. Do not say anything interesting for 8 more hours.

You may resume now.

 

[ninar]

I believe there is a difficult to exactly distinguish between what it is an alteration of a state, and what is actually a totally different phenomenon. And, well, the discussion I have seen here, I think it recurs to a set of terms that tend to antagonize to each other, or seem to inherently imply something that may not very well describe what I believe requires a more... subtlety in drawing distinctions or in attaching to certain definitions.

 

[ninar]

But no, I would never imply to give it up, maybe I was too euphoric at the moment haha

 

[Freeman Dyson]

You may resume now.

Let me try a different avenue this time..

Lucid dreaming. Would you say that lucid dreams are conscious? Lucid dreamers can control and construct their dreams. They are aware that they are dreaming and play with it.

Are you people who are hallucinating conscious?

 

[WaveJumper]

Are you people who are hallucinating conscious?

We believe we are the 'normal' ones because our hallucinations are shared by more than 6 billion people. Another reason is that our 'hallucinations' appear meaningful and behave according to strict laws and constants, and there is an obvious way for us to follow towards progress and more pleasing 'hallucinations'(oooops life).

 

[Freeman Dyson]

We believe we are the 'normal' ones because our hallucinations are shared by more than 6 billion people. Another reason is that our 'hallucinations' appear meaningful and behave according to strict laws and constants, and there is an obvious way for us to follow towards progress and more pleasing 'hallucinations'(oooops life).

As somebody once said, reality is nothing but a collective hunch.

Who is to say the scizophrenic's reality isn't the real one? Just because it is in the minority?

 

[Sorry!]

As somebody once said, reality is nothing but a collective hunch.

Who is to say the scizophrenic's reality isn't the real one? Just because it is in the minority?

This is an old argument and it has been beaten silly. People still cling to it however.
Yes, reality is based on our perceptions but that doesn't mean that they are wrong or 'unfalsifiable' in the 'reality' we live in.

When a person hallucinates it is not only provable scientifically (by studying the brain) but also by cross referencing with other people/animals/instruments.

If no other person can see this hallucination, no other animal can sense it and no instruments detect it. Then it's quite safe to say that this person who is hallucinating is indeed removed from reality.

What is reality? As I said it's based on our perceptions of what we sense 'around' us.

 

[kote]

I'm skipping the thread here, but I'll point out I think this question is very related to ethics and morality. The real world is where we and other people exist. You are not morally responsible for killing an imaginary dream ninja. You are morally responsible for killing your real neighbor.

One thing you can say about the difference between reality and a dream is that reality is where morality and ethics must live.

 

[DaveC426913]

Let me try a different avenue this time..

Lucid dreaming. Would you say that lucid dreams are conscious? Lucid dreamers can control and construct their dreams. They are aware that they are dreaming and play with it.

Are you people who are hallucinating conscious?

The issue of lucid dreaming is admittedly somewhere in the middle - even you acknowledge that (or it wouldn't be under discussion).

But how does that help us answer the original question?

Personally, I think it makes my case, since the acknowledgment of a 'middle' requires the existence of two 'ends' opposite each other.

 

[DaveC426913]

I'm skipping the thread here, but I'll point out I think this question is very related to ethics and morality. The real world is where we and other people exist. You are not morally responsible for killing an imaginary dream ninja. You are morally responsible for killing your real neighbor.

One thing you can say about the difference between reality and a dream is that reality is where morality and ethics must live.

By the same same logic, the question is related to physics, since the real world is where horses are wingless and trees grow on Earth. Imaginary pegasi and deep space trees exist in the dream world, therefore the difference between reality and a dream is that reality is where physics must live.

In short, your logic accomplishes little. It's effectively circular: "reality is where real things exist. Dreamland is where imaginary things exist".

 

[kote]

By the same same logic, the question is related to physics, since the real world is where horses are wingless and trees grow on Earth. Imaginary pegasi and deep space trees exist in the dream world, therefore the difference between reality and a dream is that reality is where physics must live.

In short, your logic accomplishes little. It's effectively circular: "reality is where real things exist. Dreamland is where imaginary things exist".

Interesting. So is your claim that we are just as morally responsible for our actions in dreams as we are for our actions in reality?

I really don't see the point here, unless that is your claim. I was responding the OP's question with a connection to an important related topic that hasn't been discussed.

Epistemologically there is nothing interesting to talk about. You have your perceptions, and typically they are relatively continuous and vivid. You call this "reality" to distinguish it from occasional, mostly less vivid, dreams or hallucinations. You have no evidence that it is not a dream or even that anyone or anything else exists. Referencing consensus or 6 billion other people is trivially circular and invalid. Arguments about whether or not you are conscious during dreams are semantic. Pick a definition for "conscious" - it's irrelevant to anything meaningful.

The thread could end with that. We could say that we don't have any evidence for such a thing as reality, so the OP's question is meaningless and unanswerable. The OP, however, implicitly assumes that there is an objective reality. Given this assumption, the only meaningful difference between objective reality and subjective hallucination would be the applicability of morality. The only other difference is, as you said, reality is real and dreams are dreams.

 

[Sorry!]

We have really no ethical code during our sleep because we are in a state of altered conciousness. So you can kill that guy or slap that girl and it won't bother you in the slightest.

 

[Freeman Dyson]

The issue of lucid dreaming is admittedly somewhere in the middle - even you acknowledge that (or it wouldn't be under discussion).

But how does that help us answer the original question?

Personally, I think it makes my case, since the acknowledgment of a 'middle' requires the existence of two 'ends' opposite each other.

Well I wanted to establish if you thought lucid dreams were conscious before I could make my next point. Do you think there can be any conscious in sleep or dream state? If vivid dreams are conscious, then what is the exact mental state that changes from a regular dream to a vivid one? Does the conscious "light" come on? Often vivid dreams start off as regular dreams. What is the "switch" that changes? Vivid dreamers can recognize and take control of normal dreams.

Have you ever had a dream where you knew you were dreaming? If so, would you consider yourself conscious during that?

Here is that guy again talking about lucidity in dreams:

Let’s suppose I’m having a lucid dream. The first thing I think is, "Oh this is a dream, here I am." Now the "I" here is who I think Stephen is. Now what’s happening in fact is that Stephen is asleep in bed somewhere, not in this world at all, and he’s having a dream that he’s in this room talking to you. With a little bit of lucidity I’d say, "this is a dream, and you’re all in my dream." A little more lucidity and I’d know you’re a dream figure and this is a dream-table, and this must be a dream-shirt and a dream-watch and what’s this? It’s got to be a dream-hand and well, so what’s this? It’s a dream-Stephen! So a moment ago I thought this is who I am and now I know that it’s just a mental model of who I am.

 

[Freeman Dyson]

This is an old argument and it has been beaten silly. People still cling to it however.
Yes, reality is based on our perceptions but that doesn't mean that they are wrong or 'unfalsifiable' in the 'reality' we live in.

When a person hallucinates it is not only provable scientifically (by studying the brain) but also by cross referencing with other people/animals/instruments.

If no other person can see this hallucination, no other animal can sense it and no instruments detect it. Then it's quite safe to say that this person who is hallucinating is indeed removed from reality.

What is reality? As I said it's based on our perceptions of what we sense 'around' us.

Who says the true reality has to be scientific? Or that science would work in it? You are biased by the standards of the reality we live in.

I am not saying dreams are the real reality either btw.

 

[DaveC426913]

Interesting. So is your claim that we are just as morally responsible for our actions in dreams as we are for our actions in reality?

No, my claim is that morals and ethics do not help define conscious from unconscious. In less diplomatic language, I think your initial statement is irrelevant.