Is there any real difference between reality and a dream?

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Buckethead

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

I'm skipping the thread here, but I'll point out I think this question is very related to ethics and morality. The real world is where we and other people exist. You are not morally responsible for killing an imaginary dream ninja. You are morally responsible for killing your real neighbor.

One thing you can say about the difference between reality and a dream is that reality is where morality and ethics must live.
Interesting point, but not quite true. I had a lucid dream where I tried to take advantage of someone (which normally is pretty easy) and was met with disapproval from this person. I was surprised by the disapproval (this had never happened up to this point) and was compelled to back off out of courtesy and for moral reasons. Go figure! :uhh:
 

Buckethead

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

I find the "lucid dreaming" thing I see gathering popularity on the internet rather funny.

Since I was a child, I had the ability to stop, rewind, and change whatever I was dreaming. I called it "directed dreaming" when I described it to people, because I was like a movie director. Of course, this as after I realized other people did not have the ability to control their dreams. I can also create dreams by starting the dream before I fall asleep. If I awake from a dream, I can decide if I want to continue the dream when I go back to sleep. In other words, I'd say that I am aware and in control perpaps 98% of the time. That doesn't mean that I think that I am able to go other places *in reality* in a dream. No.
I had belonged to a newsgroup called alt.out-of-body about 10 years ago which was at the time an incredibly active community of people that experienced both lucid dreams and out of body experiences. It was at that time that I realized how many people experienced this phenomenon. I had always felt special about it, having experience this for over 35 years, but now realize that it is much more common. Still one has to be very careful when talking to people in person as there are still vastly more folks who think it's pure lunacy. It is, as you say, becoming more and more popular as the forums about it continue to pop up and I suppose it's similar to any minority simply coming out of the closet as the fears and phobias around it start to disapate.

Like you, I also have the ability to wake, then go back to the same place I was. Gotta see what happens next after all. Also DaveC just mentioned that he has the ability to be in a state of not remembering his current thoughts over and over and I can do that too. I can also project my sense of sight to a remote non-real location while knowing my current location simultaneously. In addition I am able to comprehend something truly incomprehensible at certain times but the comprehension of course soon vanishes to be lost for good (these are my moments of "pure insight"). There is quite a bit about the "dream" world that is really making itself into popular discussions and I think it's just great.
 
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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

About a page back I saw people talking about responsiblitys we have in dreams and such... I would say the type of person you are will play out in the dream. If you are a person who is likely to shoot someone attacking you I would guess you would probably do the same in a dream.

Also talking about rewinding dreams is interesting or being able to control the dream your going to have. I personaly dont think I would even wants to be able to do that... So perhaps that is part of the reason why I havent yet?
 

DaveC426913

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

I had belonged to a newsgroup called alt.out-of-body about 10 years ago which was at the time an incredibly active community of people that experienced both lucid dreams and out of body experiences. It was at that time that I realized how many people experienced this phenomenon. I had always felt special about it, having experience this for over 35 years, but now realize that it is much more common. Still one has to be very careful when talking to people in person as there are still vastly more folks who think it's pure lunacy. It is, as you say, becoming more and more popular as the forums about it continue to pop up and I suppose it's similar to any minority simply coming out of the closet as the fears and phobias around it start to disapate.
Wait a minute. Out-of-body experience is a different block of cheese.

All the other phenomena we've mentioned are entirely internal to the person. They're simply things happening in the brain. Out-of-body experiences (that are claimed to be genuine) are studyable - and falsifiable.

And yeah, people will have a big objection to this one. There is no known mechanism that allows one's perception to leave one's body. That one needs to be demionstrated satisfactorily before you'll get any buy-in.

I can also project my sense of sight to a remote non-real location while knowing my current location simultaneously.
I don't understand this one. I am currently projecting my sense of sight to Jupiter. Are you suggesting you have some form of genuine clairvoyance?

In addition I am able to comprehend something truly incomprehensible at certain times but the comprehension of course soon vanishes to be lost for good (these are my moments of "pure insight").
Others call these moments of "being stoned". :wink:

All seriounsess aside. One of the problems with the brain is that it possible to have the brain think something is truly profound, but that doesn't mean it really is. The feeling of profundity can be switched on independent of the presence of anything actually happening. It is a portion of the brain that actually assigns a feeling of importance to events. (This is often cited as the source of profound zeal seen in accounts such as divine visitation and UFO encounters.)
 
Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

Yeah, that guy who first proved lucid dreaming has written extensively on NDE and OBE. He says they are totally explained by biology and not supernatural at all. Some kind of sensory cutoff is happening.

I can't totally rule them out though I guess..

Anyway, here is some more interesting comments by him:

RMN: There seems to be a correlation between psychedelic consciousness and lucid consciousness in the dream state.

Stephen: There’s a lot in common between the two states. In fact people can in the dream state, take a dream "psychedelic" and have it produce an effect.

DJB: Terence McKenna says that he smokes DMT in his dreams and then has the full experience.

Stephen: And what that shows is that what prevents us from having these experiences is not the chemical, it’s the mental framework. So in a way psychedelics can be a kind of guide in revealing some of the potential in the mind. I think they have limitations in terms of taking us to the visions they show us. One can take the mistaken path of saying, well since I had the taste of it with the substance, if I keep taking it I’ll eventually get the whole thing because more of the same should help. It doesn’t seem to work that way.
Good interview really:

http://www.futurehi.net/docs/Laberge_WakingDreamer.html [Broken]
 
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Buckethead

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

Wait a minute. Out-of-body experience is a different block of cheese.

All the other phenomena we've mentioned are entirely internal to the person. They're simply things happening in the brain. Out-of-body experiences (that are claimed to be genuine) are studyable - and falsifiable.

And yeah, people will have a big objection to this one. There is no known mechanism that allows one's perception to leave one's body. That one needs to be demionstrated satisfactorily before you'll get any buy-in.
OBE and Lucid dreaming are considered by many practitioners to be one in the same while others consider them as you say. Other's still are on the fence. It's a massive topic of debate in the OBE/Lucid circles. Here is the problem (from my personal experience). OBE's are loaded with hallucinations. You can slip out in your bedroom notice the usual stuff around your bedroom but discover your bedroom dresser is against the wrong wall. Step out the bedroom door into the hallway and find yourself in someone else's living room. Too much is the same to dismiss it as a dream, yet the differences between what you see and what you know to be reality differ. The consistancy here is very high. Exiting during an OBE from a waking state causes this kind of thing to happen over and over. Other consistant things happen during OBEs as well that don't happen during lucid dreams.

I don't understand this one. I am currently projecting my sense of sight to Jupiter. Are you suggesting you have some form of genuine clairvoyance?

Others call these moments of "being stoned". :wink:
I was differentiating between an OBE where all of me goes somewhere to just having my sense of sight (and sound) be able to travel as if it were a remote camera connected to me in my home. I know I am in bed, yet can see clearly someplace else.

I was careful to state that I could project my sight to a non-physical place. I've never been able to do this to a place I could verify so I can't say I have genuine clarvoyance.

All seriounsess aside. One of the problems with the brain is that it possible to have the brain think something is truly profound, but that doesn't mean it really is. The feeling of profundity can be switched on independent of the presence of anything actually happening. It is a portion of the brain that actually assigns a feeling of importance to events. (This is often cited as the source of profound zeal seen in accounts such as divine visitation and UFO encounters.)
I don't dispute these discoveries. Also probing certain areas of the brain can cause spontaneous OBEs. However, the extreme nature of human consciousness with respect to what we know of through physics about reality leaves me to think of these observations as just another piece of the puzzle but certainly not highly illuminating. The experiences I've had of momentary extreme clarity and knowledge was accompanied by full analytical processing of what I was experiencing to the degree that I could teach it to someone at that moment in English sentences. Alas, the clarity so quickly disappears and with it a real sense of loss. Still I do not dismiss that it can be a brain trick, but I think it's unlikely.
 

Buckethead

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

Yeah, that guy who first proved lucid dreaming has written extensively on NDE and OBE. He says they are totally explained by biology and not supernatural at all. Some kind of sensory cutoff is happening.

I can't totally rule them out though I guess..
I am familiar with Leberge's work and we've had some email discussions. Although I can appreciate his work on Lucid Dreaming, I (and many others) don't agree with his assessment that OBEs are just lucid dreams and I have clearly expressed my opinions to him about this. Still, we all just have our opinions.
 
Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

I am familiar with Leberge's work and we've had some email discussions. Although I can appreciate his work on Lucid Dreaming, I (and many others) don't agree with his assessment that OBEs are just lucid dreams and I have clearly expressed my opinions to him about this. Still, we all just have our opinions.
That's pretty cool that you have communicated with him about this.

:smile:
 

Buckethead

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

That's pretty cool that you have communicated with him about this.

:smile:
I think it's cool communicating with people in this forum.:wink:
 

DaveC426913

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

OBE and Lucid dreaming are considered by many practitioners to be one in the same while others consider them as you say. Other's still are on the fence. It's a massive topic of debate in the OBE/Lucid circles.
I guess I'm behind the times.

Where I come from lucid dreaming simply means the ability to be conscious and aware and in control while dreaming.
Here is the problem (from my personal experience). OBE's are loaded with hallucinations. You can slip out in your bedroom notice the usual stuff around your bedroom but discover your bedroom dresser is against the wrong wall. Step out the bedroom door into the hallway and find yourself in someone else's living room. Too much is the same to dismiss it as a dream, yet the differences between what you see and what you know to be reality differ. The consistancy here is very high. Exiting during an OBE from a waking state causes this kind of thing to happen over and over. Other consistant things happen during OBEs as well that don't happen during lucid dreams.
OBE must be pretty easy to verify or falsify. The ol' write number on a piece of paper and place it on top of a tall bookcase is a common test. I've never heard of it being verified.

I was differentiating between an OBE where all of me goes somewhere to just having my sense of sight (and sound) be able to travel as if it were a remote camera connected to me in my home. I know I am in bed, yet can see clearly someplace else.
But what about this makes it any more than a type of dream? Dreaming that your sense of sight is somewhere remote is simply a "dream" thing, somewhat akin to dreaming that you're flying. What leads you to believe there is more to it?
 

Buckethead

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

I guess I'm behind the times.

Where I come from lucid dreaming simply means the ability to be conscious and aware and in control while dreaming.

And you would be correct, that is the definition of a lucid dream.

OBE must be pretty easy to verify or falsify. The ol' write number on a piece of paper and place it on top of a tall bookcase is a common test. I've never heard of it being verified.
I've heard of it being verified, but what can one really say about that? I've tried this experiment myself and have failed which doesn't surprise me. It's not an easy experiment to perform. One might have to wait weeks for an OBE and when the time comes you might find the paper isn't where you put it, or you read it and you can't read it, or you can read it and not remember the number when you return (no matter how much you repeat it in your head so you can remember it) or you can remember it and it's the wrong number. What does this say? Well scientifically the standard model would be that it's just a dream and in some sense that would be correct. But this is a very primitive standard model IMO.

The reason I think it's important to move beyond the standard model is because of the conflict between what we usually think of as a dream and what one experiences during an OBE (or even lucid dream). Is a dream just "something we do at night" or does it go beyond that? One of the key points when defining reality is the uncanny sense that we are really here doing whatever it is we are doing. We are experiencing reality as fully conscious awake entities. If someone asks, "Is this real?" and we are awake, we can answer yes, because we can think and feel and react and experience with all that we are. If one is "dreaming" but experiencing exactly the same thing, then what do you call that? One difference between waking and conscious dreaming might be that we return to waking consistantly, but I have returned to the same place during an OBE as well, just not to the same degree. And as Dyson mentioned earlier, the laws of physics can be really twisted in the dreamscape which can add to the confusion about what is real and what is not. Is reality a place where there are certain laws of physics, Newtonian laws for example, and if these laws don't exist, are we allowed to call this a non-reality? I'll say that waking reality is "more" real than an OBE reality for the reasons I just gave, but I'd be really careful about calling an OBE "just a dream". And why is this important? I think that investigating this further might lead to some insight about some of the stuff that goes on behind the curtain of what we think of as reality. What about non-locality? Is this phenomenon somehow tied in with OBE or lucid dreams? It's easy to dismiss, but we are at such a brick wall in this area I wouldn't dismiss anything.


But what about this makes it any more than a type of dream? Dreaming that your sense of sight is somewhere remote is simply a "dream" thing, somewhat akin to dreaming that you're flying. What leads you to believe there is more to it?
I actually didn't say it was different than a type of dream, I just said it's different than an OBE. But to take your question further the devil is in the details. Whenever I have standard dreams, they involve the totallity of me being in the dream. A remote viewing is where you are fully aware you are laying in bed, but you can clearly see and hear a remote location and move the "camera" around at will to examine details as if looking at a real object. Also the remote location seems "stable" unlike let's say the unstable images of a typical mental image.
 

DaveC426913

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

A remote viewing is where you are fully aware you are laying in bed, but you can clearly see and hear a remote location and move the "camera" around at will to examine details as if looking at a real object. Also the remote location seems "stable" unlike let's say the unstable images of a typical mental image.
Ah. Never had one of those.
 
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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

Why exactly has the conversation shifted to OBEs? Bucket if you think that you are having OBEs you should probably check yourself into a hospital...

It is something that is falsifiable and it has been multiple times... I have never heard of it being 'proven' by any sort of credible source beyond crackpottery.
 

Buckethead

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

Why exactly has the conversation shifted to OBEs? Bucket if you think that you are having OBEs you should probably check yourself into a hospital...

It is something that is falsifiable and it has been multiple times... I have never heard of it being 'proven' by any sort of credible source beyond crackpottery.
Alas, my comments about fears and phobias stand.
 

DaveC426913

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

Alas, my comments about fears and phobias stand.
How do you equate skepticism with fear and phobia? Skepticism is rational.

Is there any verification of OBE?
 

Buckethead

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

How do you equate skepticism with fear and phobia? Skepticism is rational.

Is there any verification of OBE?
I was equating rude comments about hospital visits with fears and phobias.

Is there any verification of Strings? Branes? Multiple dimensions? Advanced alien life? Should one abandon explorations of these areas because there is none? Should one check oneself into a hospital because one is studying String Theory?
 
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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

I was equating rude comments about hospital visits with fears and phobias.

Is there any verification of Strings? Branes? Multiple dimensions? Advanced alien life? Should one abandon explorations of these areas because there is none? Should one check oneself into a hospital because one is studying String Theory?
These things are all falsifiable and when the evidence suggests they are not true PEACE OUT. Observation supports all theories you spoke of in one way or another. So why should we abandon these areas?

OBE on the other hand has been many times tested. Post some links to a credible sourced peer review references and maybe I won't be so rude to you.
 

DaveC426913

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

I was equating rude comments about hospital visits with fears and phobias.

Is there any verification of Strings? Branes? Multiple dimensions? Advanced alien life? Should one abandon explorations of these areas because there is none? Should one check oneself into a hospital because one is studying String Theory?
Hm. This may not be the best forum for you after all. Of all the fora there are out there on the web, this one is probably the most diligent about adhering to established science.

Not only will you get a lot of skeptics demanding citation of reliable evidence, but it is very likely that the thread will get locked for violating its rules about speculation, thus:

One of the main goals of PF is to help students learn the current status of physics as practiced by the scientific community; accordingly, Physicsforums.com strives to maintain high standards of academic integrity. There are many open questions in physics, and we welcome discussion on those subjects provided the discussion remains intellectually sound. It is against our Posting Guidelines to discuss, in most of the PF forums or in blogs, new or non-mainstream theories or ideas that have not been published in professional peer-reviewed journals or are not part of current professional mainstream scientific discussion. Personal theories/Independent Research may be submitted to our Independent Research Forum, provided they meet our Independent Research Guidelines; Personal theories posted elsewhere will be deleted. Poorly formulated personal theories, unfounded challenges of mainstream science, and overt crackpottery will not be tolerated anywhere on the site.
 
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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

Any of you can shift into a wolf ?
 

DaveC426913

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

Any of you can shift into a wolf ?
Stop that!
 
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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

Any of you can shift into a wolf ?
Well somewhat... only that I have wings and can fly in as far as the moon... no farther though the air past that point is too limited!

I think dave wants to keep this discussion on a serious track tho him and freeman were having pretty good convo.
 

DaveC426913

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

Any of you can shift into a wolf ?
Wait. You mean like, in your dreams?

I thought you were just mocking Buckethead...:rolleyes:
 
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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

I thought you were just mocking Buckethead...:rolleyes:
No way, I dont have the balls to mock anyone on this site.o:)
 

Evo

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

I had belonged to a newsgroup called alt.out-of-body about 10 years ago which was at the time an incredibly active community of people that experienced both lucid dreams and out of body experiences. It was at that time that I realized how many people experienced this phenomenon. I had always felt special about it, having experience this for over 35 years, but now realize that it is much more common. Still one has to be very careful when talking to people in person as there are still vastly more folks who think it's pure lunacy. It is, as you say, becoming more and more popular as the forums about it continue to pop up and I suppose it's similar to any minority simply coming out of the closet as the fears and phobias around it start to disapate.

Like you, I also have the ability to wake, then go back to the same place I was. Gotta see what happens next after all. Also DaveC just mentioned that he has the ability to be in a state of not remembering his current thoughts over and over and I can do that too. I can also project my sense of sight to a remote non-real location while knowing my current location simultaneously. In addition I am able to comprehend something truly incomprehensible at certain times but the comprehension of course soon vanishes to be lost for good (these are my moments of "pure insight"). There is quite a bit about the "dream" world that is really making itself into popular discussions and I think it's just great.
We definitely differ here as I realize a dream is only a dream, it is not real. You can dream that you are on another planet, then you wake up and you're in your bed.

Being able to control dreams is just an ability some people have. But it is still only a dream.

There is a craze right now with the lucid dreaming thing where people are convincing themselves that they can alter reality. Oy.
 

Buckethead

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Re: Is there any real difference between "reality" and a dream???

We definitely differ here as I realize a dream is only a dream, it is not real. You can dream that you are on another planet, then you wake up and you're in your bed.

Being able to control dreams is just an ability some people have. But it is still only a dream.

There is a craze right now with the lucid dreaming thing where people are convincing themselves that they can alter reality. Oy.
I think I'm being misunderstood. I never said that a lucid dream or any other kind of mental state while asleep is reality as we commonly understand it or that it is something other than the commonly accepted defintion of a dream. I simply find it curious that under certain circumstances a dream can appear to be an actual reality in the way that we commonly test reality such as presence of mind, stability of the environment and so on. The degree to which this seems to happen is more than normal and that is all I'm claiming. The undertow of ridicule that has shown up in the last few posts I find very offensive and I'm actually surprised by it as I find most everyone here to be open minded and curious about things we don't yet have a full understanding of. But Dave is right, perhaps this isn't a subject for this forum. I didn't start the thread by the way.
 

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