Is there anything in the Universe that is not fundamentally made up of matter?

[Amazed]

Is there anything in the Universe that is not fundamentally made up of matter?

 

[Hornbein]

Electromagnetic radiation has no rest mass so it is not matter. It does however attract things gravitationally to a small degree, and is produced by matter.

 

[martinbn]

It depends on your definition of matter. If by matter you mean anything that can interact, then no, there isn't anything that isn't matter. If your definition is more restrictive, like the one used in post 2, then yes, there things that are not matter.

 

[DaveC426913]

Gravity, AKA spacetime curvature, is a thing in the universe, but it is not - itself - matter.

But the bigger, easier answer is - as others have pointed out - electromagnetic radiation.

 

[Amazed]

Electromagnetic radiation has no rest mass so it is not matter. It does however attract things gravitationally to a small degree, and is produced by matter.

When you say that electromagnetic radiation is produced by matter, then could this also be interpreted as being fundamentally made up of, or made by, matter?

 

[Amazed]

It depends on your definition of matter. If by matter you mean anything that can interact, then no, there isn't anything that isn't matter. If your definition is more restrictive, like the one used in post 2, then yes, there things that are not matter.

How do you or the people in a physics forum define the word 'matter'?

If electromagnetic radiation can attract things, then it can interact, so what do you mean by the definition in post 2 is a thing that is not matter?

 

[Amazed]

Three people have said that there are things that are not matter.

I asked are there things that are not fundamentally made up of matter, but maybe a better question would be is there any thing that is not fundamentally made up by matter?

Is gravity and/or electromagnetic radiation fundamentally made up by matter?

 

[Hill]

Three people have said that there are things that are not matter.

I asked are there things that are not fundamentally made up of matter, but maybe a better question would be is there any thing that is not fundamentally made up by matter?

Is gravity and/or electromagnetic radiation fundamentally made up by matter?

According to this definition, gravity and EM radiation are not matter.

 

[DaveC426913]

While not definitive, one might make a good start by grouping all things into either fermions or bosons.

Fermions obey the Pauli Exclusion Principle - they take up space - as matter does. It is possible to fill. a box with fermions until no more can be added.

Bosons do not obey PEP - they do not take up space - eg. photons. You can fill a box with photons and it will never get full.

 

[Borek]

Bosons do not obey PEP - they do not take up space

So helium-4 atom doesn't occupy space?

 

[DaveC426913]

So helium-4 atom doesn't occupy space?

Well, now I'm confused.

Bosons do not obey PEP.
He⁴ is bosonic.
Therefore He⁴ does not obey PEP.
Checks out.

I guess not obeying PEP does not automatically mean a particle does not take up space.

 

[PeroK]

Is there anything in the Universe that is not fundamentally made up of matter?

There is matter, antimatter, radiation, possibly dark matter, possibly dark energy, spacetime (if you count that as something). Anything else?

 

[robphy]

In General Relativity, the Einstein field equations read $G_{ab}=\kappa T_{ab}$,
where $T_{ab}$ is the stress-tensor, where all forms of "matter" go,
including the perfect-fluid photon gas

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_fluid#Cosmology_and_astrophysics
The case where p=0 describes a dust solution. When p=ρ_m c^2/3, it describes a photon gas (radiation).

So, by this definition, light and electromagnetic radiation count as "matter".

 

[Ibix]

So, we're concluding that the answer is either yes or no, depending on what you include in the definition of the word "matter".

 

[PeroK]

So, we're concluding that the answer is either yes or no, depending on what you include in the definition of the word "matter".

It seems to me a bit like saying all the people in the world are men, if we count women and children as part of "mankind".

 

[Ibix]

It seems to me a bit like saying all the people in the world are men, if we count women and children as part of "mankind".

I'm torn between a line about "doesn't matter" and quoting Neil Armstrong.

 

[sbrothy]

I'm surprised that no one has yet to point out that it may not really matter that much.

But then again that joke is so low-hanging and inane that it fits me fine.

 

[Amazed]

View attachment 369547
According to this definition, gravity and EM radiation are not matter.

Once again, okay, but are they made up 'by' matter?

If no, then what exactly are they made up or created by?

If they are not matter, then what exactly are they, what do they consist of, which makes them attract and/or interact with matter, itself?

 

[Hill]

Once again, okay, but are they made up 'by' matter?

If no, then what exactly are they made up or created by?

If they are not matter, then what exactly are they, what do they consist of, which makes them attract and/or interact with matter, itself?

You can find the answers to these questions in physics textbooks.
If there is something there you need to clarify, you can ask specific questions here.

 

[Amazed]

While not definitive, one might make a good start by grouping all things into either fermions or bosons.

Fermions obey the Pauli Exclusion Principle - they take up space - as matter does. It is possible to fill. a box with fermions until no more can be added.

Bosons do not obey PEP - they do not take up space - eg. photons. You can fill a box with photons and it will never get full.

Do photons come from matter?

Are photons fundamentally created by matter?

If photons do not consist of matter and thus are not made up of matter, they can and do still come from matter itself correct?

If yes, then photons are made, or created, 'by' matter although they do not consist of matter and are not made of matter, right?

 

[Amazed]

There is matter, antimatter, radiation, possibly dark matter, possibly dark energy, spacetime (if you count that as something). Anything else?

For your information I had already changed the 'of' word to 'by'?
Are these things made up 'by' matter, or 'by' something else?

 

[Amazed]

In General Relativity, the Einstein field equations read $G_{ab}=\kappa T_{ab}$,
where $T_{ab}$ is the stress-tensor, where all forms of "matter" go,
including the perfect-fluid photon gas

So, by this definition, light and electromagnetic radiation count as "matter".

Why do the people in this forum say some things that contradict each other?

Who has the 'right answer', and, what is the 'agreed up and accepted answer'?

 

[Amazed]

So, we're concluding that the answer is either yes or no, depending on what you include in the definition of the word "matter".

It appears that this is what is occurring here.

What do you include in the definition of the word 'matter'?

 

[Amazed]

It seems to me a bit like saying all the people in the world are men, if we count women and children as part of "mankind".

That would all depend on what you include in the definition of the words 'people', 'men', 'women', and 'children'. To me it appears a very outdated, convoluted, and confusing way to include women and children as being 'men', or as being 'man'.

Anyway, I am asking is there absolutely anything that is not fundamentally made up by matter, itself?

 

[Amazed]

I'm torn between a line about "doesn't matter" and quoting Neil Armstrong.

Okay.

 

[Amazed]

I'm surprised that no one has yet to point out that it may not really matter that much.

It may well not matter that much.

But, then again, it may come to light that it did actually really matter very much.

But then again that joke is so low-hanging and inane that it fits me fine.

 

[Amazed]

You can find the answers to these questions in physics textbooks.

Thank you. I was not aware of this.

In which physics textbooks does it state that there are, or are not things, which are fundamentally not made up by matter, itself?

If there is something there you need to clarify, you can ask specific questions here.

After I look in the physics textbooks that you informed me about I will come back here with specific questions for clarification.

Until then I will ask the specific question here in this physics forum, 'Is there absolutely anything at all, which is not fundamentally made up nor created by matter, itself', for clarification?

 

[robphy]

Why do the people in this forum say some things that contradict each other?

Who has the 'right answer', and, what is the 'agreed up and accepted answer'?

Clearly, we are not all using the same definitions.
So there is some ambiguity.
And words are imperfect.

So, it seems the question is also ambiguous... unless some ground rules are laid out.

 

[Amazed]

Clearly, we are not all using the same definitions.
So there is some ambiguity.
And words are imperfect.

So, it seems the question is also ambiguous... unless some ground rules are laid out.

How about if the question, itself, is ambiguous to you are anyone else, then the ground rule laid out is,
Just ask me an open question, from an open perspective, for clarification.

The best way I found to find and obtain clarity is to just ask open questions, for clarification.

Also, to me words, themselves, are neither perfect nor imperfect. They are just words, literally used for communication. Although words are neither perfect nor imperfect the definitions used for words can become agreed upon, accepted, and thus unambiguous. This can occur through just clear and open communication and done best through asking clarifying questions, like for example;
What appears to be ambiguous in the question, 'Is there absolutely anything that is not fundamentally created by matter, itself', to you?

 

[renormalize]

What do you include in the definition of the word 'matter'?

Modern physics quite simply views "matter" to be any of the 17 quantum fields that appear in the Standard Model (SM) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model):

and an 18th field "gravitation", described classically by General Relativity (GR), that likely arises from a quantum field of "graviton" particles. In SM+GR, all 18 of these fields are equally fundamental and none are made of anything else, as far as we can tell. But if "dark matter" does indeed exist, and it can be detected and characterized, it may well add one (or more) additional quantum fields to the list of the 18 forms of matter currently known to physics.