Is there really such a thing as a perfect circle in nature?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the existence of perfect circles in nature, exploring whether such shapes can be found outside of human conceptualization. Participants consider various contexts, including theoretical, conceptual, and observational aspects.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that electric field lines can be considered circular.
  • Others question the definition of "perfect," suggesting that all circles have some degree of imperfection, represented as a radius R ± ΔR.
  • A participant mentions that black holes might have well-defined radii, but others challenge this by stating that perturbations and historical conditions prevent them from being perfectly spherical.
  • Some participants propose that natural objects like bubbles, raindrops, and oranges may approximate perfect circles or spheres under certain conditions.
  • There is a discussion about the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, with some arguing that it implies a perfect circle cannot exist due to limitations in defining exact positions.
  • Several participants assert that all geometric shapes are human inventions and do not exist perfectly in nature, emphasizing that measurements introduce errors.
  • One participant recalls a legend about Leonardo DaVinci drawing a perfect circle, suggesting that perfection may exist in artistic or conceptual forms rather than in reality.
  • Another participant humorously concludes that a "perfect circle" could be defined as one that is not perfect at all.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the existence of perfect circles in nature. Multiple competing views are presented, with some arguing for the possibility of approximations and others asserting that perfection cannot be achieved.

Contextual Notes

Discussions include references to the Planck length and the nature of geometric definitions, highlighting limitations in measurement and the conceptual nature of shapes.

  • #31
lalbatros said:
If we neglect the drag of air that deforms the drop, and many other small effects.
Still not in the ballpark. There are definite molecular and atomic "bumps" in the surface.
 
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  • #32
rock.freak667 said:
Well I think things like electric field lines are circular.
That depends on the antenna structure.
Magnetic field lines are circular around a perfect conductor carring a constant current as given in the classic example.
 
  • #33
Academic said:
I don't see how error is relevant to a definition. We define things arbitrarily, and usually exactly.

That's mathematics, the tools in our minds.

Academic said:
Error comes in when we measure and model.

That's physics, the things we measure in nature.

The link between the two : the models that take error into account (such as HUP for the small scale.)

Of course the word "perfect" pretty much excludes anything. Even black holes can't be perfect because there is always something falling in it that breaks the symmetry (or quantum radiation coming out).
 
  • #34
Suppose there was a perfect circle in nature.

We can measure this to some amount, suppose 14 decimal places (or a thousand, or a googol, whatever you like, I'll use 14 for sake of argument).

We check a possible perfect circle that really IS perfect, to infinite decimal places. We confirm this when our measurements cannot find any flaw.

We check a possible perfect circle that is NOT perfect, but has an error that is smaller than our ability to detect. The circle still appears perfect.

Result: It doesn't matter if there IS a perfect circle in nature or not, we have no way of determining the validity of its existence as perfect, merely as 'perfect to the limit of our ability to measure'.

Just an opinion. Probably not helpful.
 

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