High School Is Time a Fundamental Force in Physics?

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SUMMARY

The discussion centers on the proposition of time as a fundamental force in physics, akin to gravity. Participants argue against this notion, emphasizing that time is a measurement rather than a force, with proper time defined as what a clock measures. The consensus is that time does not exert force or cause acceleration, as it lacks mass and does not change in a way that requires a force to act upon it. The conversation highlights the importance of adhering to established scientific principles when discussing concepts like time and forces.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of Newton's laws of motion, particularly the second law.
  • Familiarity with the concepts of proper time and coordinate time in physics.
  • Basic knowledge of fundamental forces in physics, including gravity and electromagnetism.
  • Awareness of the role of muons in contemporary physics discussions.
NEXT STEPS
  • Research the definition and implications of proper time versus coordinate time in physics.
  • Study Newton's laws of motion to understand the relationship between force, mass, and acceleration.
  • Explore the concept of time as the fourth dimension in the context of spacetime theory.
  • Investigate current scientific literature on the nature of forces and their interactions with time.
USEFUL FOR

Physicists, students of physics, and anyone interested in the foundational concepts of time and forces in the universe will benefit from this discussion.

Jim Robison
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TL;DR
Is time a Force, similar to gravity?
We all know the four fundamental forces in physics: gravity, electromagnetism, and the strong and weak nuclear forces; and there is now some discussion about a fifth, more obscure force involving muons.

But I have a question; could the fifth force be something we deal with every day? Could it be one of the first things observed by a new-born babe, and one of the last wishes of a dying individual. Could the fifth force be time?

Like gravity, time is everywhere, and again, like gravity, it appears to only act in one direction. Time is also related to gravity in that time appears to slow down as gravity increases. Why should gravity be awarded the distinction of a major force in physics while time is not even considered a distant cousin?

Consider time as a force pushing the universe in one direction, slowing where gravity opposes it, but eventually getting its’ way. Surely, time must be recognized as one of the five forces in physics.
 
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Jim Robison said:
Is time a Force, similar to gravity?
No. I don't think the concept even makes any sense.
 
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Jim Robison said:
a fifth, more obscure force involving muons.
… Could the fifth force be time?
Obviously not. Time is neither obscure nor does it affect muons more than other matter.

Please review the forum rules before posting further. Personal speculation is not permitted here. If you want to understand the mainstream scientific concept of time or the recent data on muons, that is fine. But we will wait until there a scientific paper is published on the topic to discuss combining those ideas.
 
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Sorry to be so confusing. My reference to muons was simply an introduction to the idea of a "fifth force. In retrospect, I should have left it out and just jumped directly into my question about time as a force. My sincere apologies to muon fans.
 
phinds said:
No. I don't think the concept even makes any sense.
I cannot disagree with the logic of your argument.
 
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Jim Robison said:
my question about time as a force
Time is not a force. The units are wrong, even in natural or geometrized units.

Time is the thing a clock measures. This is the usual physical concept of time, called proper time to distinguish it from coordinate time which is mathematical rather than physical.
 
Jim Robison said:
Surely, time must be recognized as one of the five forces in physics.
My mass is hurtling through space and time. To speed up, or slow down my apparent rate of time, would require a force be applied in the time dimension. So, if anything, time is less like a force, time is more like a velocity.
 
Your mass is not hurtling through space and time if time does not change. My question is: What is causing (forcing) time to change? What force caused yesterday to become today? What force will cause today to become tomorrow?
 
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Jim Robison said:
What force caused yesterday to become today?
That is nonsense. Surely you know Newton’s 2nd law: ##\vec F =m\vec a##.

Neither yesterday nor today have mass. And yesterday becoming today is not acceleration. So with no mass and no acceleration, trying to infer that there must be a force is just plain silly.

Again, time is what a clock measures.
 
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Jim Robison said:
TL;DR Summary: Is time a Force, similar to gravity?

Consider time as a force pushing the universe in one direction, slowing where gravity opposes it, but eventually getting its’ way. Surely, time must be recognized as one of the five forces in physics.
To paraphrase Newton slightly: "A force is that which causes or changes an acceleration." An object can easily move between x = 0 m and x = 1 m without a force being applied. It is only when it's velocity changes over that domain that we say there is a force acting on it.

As the "rate of time change" is constant in an observer's frame of reference, the "rate of time change" is not changing, so saying a force is acting to "move" an object from yesterday to today is incorrect.

-Dan
 
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Jim Robison said:
Your mass is not hurtling through space and time if time does not change.
A cheap clock mechanism might stop, but time continues to roll on by.
 
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When I was a lad, they used to talk of "Time, the fourth dimension". Another of those names that don't follow consistent logic. I can see the appeal, though. All that's necessary is to ignore what we know so far, of Science
 
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Jim Robison said:
My question is: What is causing (forcing) time to change? What force caused yesterday to become today? What force will cause today to become tomorrow?
No force is required, just like no force is required for your position to change while you are in motion.
 
  • #14
"All irregularities will be handled by the forces controlling each dimension."
- Sorry, it had to be said.
- And yes, it is obscure old people humor.
 
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Vanadium 50 said:
"All irregularities will be handled by the forces controlling each dimension."
- Sorry, it had to be said.
- And yes, it is obscure old people humor.
Sapphire and Steel. Wow! Haven't thought about that one in a while.

-Dan
 
  • #16
I think this is a good place to stop.
 
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