Is Verlinde's Gravity Theory Based on Relativistic Assumptions?

[CHIKO-2010]

T

Of course, the constructing ideas are not really obscure or complicate or bizarre. It's because you see if from a different perspective.

I guess I have to agree with this, i see it from a different perspective

 

[Fra]

how do you suppose to treat local degrees of freedom of those theories without space (and hence the notion of locality etc)?

The notion of locality is a key constructing principle in my view, and the notion of locality I use has nothing to do with regular spacetime specifically. It is a locality that refers to generic locations in information space (*) which is defined without prior existence of the 4D spacetime we know of.

The locality principle I use as a constructing axiom is that

The decisions(=rational actions) of a given system depends only upon the information at hand. From the decision theoretic view this is obvious, as anything else is simply irrational and nonsensial.

This is a locality in the sense that, local decision depend only on local information. Where LOCAL information refers to the set of information that defines the observer. Thus "points" in this absctract space are not really empty points, they are structures having a defined complexity and internal structure. There is a distance measure that will be constructed loosely speaking as some form of information distance, ie. a measure of how much information or how many bits of information that separates two information states.

Thus the locality we mean referring to 4D space is a special case of the more general principle.

(*) This information space is furthermore not stative, it's evolving and observer dependent. Effectively objective spaces will emerge as equilibrium points chosen by evolution, when the environment is interacting similarly constructed systems.

/Fredrik

 

[S.Daedalus]

The problem of reversibility of the entropic force (it can be reversible, not fully but with high accuracy) is not at the heart of the criticism in 1009.5414. Time evolution of the system is unitary, the Hamiltonian has real positive eigenvalues. I think the same must be true for the Motl's argument. In essence these two criticisms are very similar.

I'm not sure I understand you right -- if the evolution is unitary, then the dynamics are exactly reversible, not merely with high accuracy. And in the paper, translation along the z-axis takes pure states to mixed states, and hence, is non-unitary. As for Motl's post, if the neutron starts with zero entropy, it is in a pure state, from which, in order to 'acquire' entropy, it must evolve into a mixed one, which again requires non-unitarity. That's a general feature, since entropy is invariant under unitary transformations.

I think the mistake here is the assumption that the neutron's entropy must rise -- that's akin to saying that, in for instance an expanding gas, the entropy of every gas atom rises as the entropy of the gas as a whole does. However, the dynamics of each individual gas atom (which we can think of as some classical, hard sphere for present purposes) are perfectly reversible, even if the dynamics of the gas as a whole is not. So that the entropy in a (gravitational) system rises does not necessarily imply that the entropy of each of its constituents -- such as the neutron -- does, too, and hence, does not necessitate any non-unitary dynamics, or loss of coherence.

 

[CHIKO-2010]

I'm not sure I understand you right -- if the evolution is unitary, then the dynamics are exactly reversible, not merely with high accuracy. And in the paper, translation along the z-axis takes pure states to mixed states, and hence, is non-unitary. As for Motl's post, if the neutron starts with zero entropy, it is in a pure state, from which, in order to 'acquire' entropy, it must evolve into a mixed one, which again requires non-unitarity. That's a general feature, since entropy is invariant under unitary transformations.

Since the energy eigenvalues are all real (see (17) in 1009.5414) time evolution is unitary, that is |\psi|^2 is conserved in time. As you have pointed out this means also reversibility (recall, t-> -t is an anti-unitary symmetry). I don't think this is the problem.

The problem is the very fact that gravity, according to Verlinde, emerges due to the entropy difference related with positions of the gravitating objects.

I think the mistake here is the assumption that the neutron's entropy must rise -- that's akin to saying that, in for instance an expanding gas, the entropy of every gas atom rises as the entropy of the gas as a whole does. However, the dynamics of each individual gas atom (which we can think of as some classical, hard sphere for present purposes) are perfectly reversible, even if the dynamics of the gas as a whole is not. So that the entropy in a (gravitational) system rises does not necessarily imply that the entropy of each of its constituents -- such as the neutron -- does, too, and hence, does not necessitate any non-unitary dynamics, or loss of coherence.

I do not agree. your analogy with the gas of particles is not valid here. Here we have 2-body problem: Neutron-Earth. They gravitate because neutron changes its position (relative to Earth) and thus the entropy, according to Verlinde. More, precise analogy would be to consider two macroscopically large subsystems of the gas, where you can define entropy for each subsystem.

 

[qsa]

Since the energy eigenvalues are all real (see (17) in 1009.5414) time evolution is unitary, that is |\psi|^2 is conserved in time. As you have pointed out this means also reversibility (recall, t-> -t is an anti-unitary symmetry). I don't think this is the problem.

The problem is the very fact that gravity, according to Verlinde, emerges due to the entropy difference related with positions of the gravitating objects.



I do not agree. your analogy with the gas of particles is not valid here. Here we have 2-body problem: Neutron-Earth. They gravitate because neutron changes its position (relative to Earth) and thus the entropy, according to Verlinde. More, precise analogy would be to consider two macroscopically large subsystems of the gas, where you can define entropy for each subsystem.

if this paper and the references(11,14..) enclosed does not give you a better idea as to what verlinde is conjecturing I will try to clarify the idea later.


http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1003/1003.1262v3.pdf


Joakim Munkhammar
Studentstaden 23:230, 752 33, Uppsala, Sweden
E-Mail: joakim.munkhammar@gmail.com

ABSTRACT: In this paper we suggest a connection between quantum mechanics and Verlinde’s recently proposed entropic force theory for the laws of Newton. We propose an
entropy based on the quantum mechanical probability density distribution. With the assumption that the holographic principle holds we propose that our suggested quantum
entropy generalizes the Bekenstein entropy used by Verlinde in his approach. Based on
this assumption we suggest that Verlinde’s entropic theory of gravity has a quantum mechanical origin. We establish a reformulation of the Newtonian potential for gravity based
on this quantum mechanical entropy. We also discuss the notion of observation and the
correspondence to classical physics. Finally we give a discussion, a number of open problems and some concluding remarks

you can also read this

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=2615567#post2615567

 

[S.Daedalus]

Since the energy eigenvalues are all real (see (17) in 1009.5414) time evolution is unitary, that is |\psi|^2 is conserved in time.

I don't think that this matters -- it seems to me that the modified quantum bouncer that's solved in the paper is derived from the assumption that the neutron's state at some height is pure, and during its fall, it 'picks up' entropy -- that's what I think is invalid. (In particular, I'm not entirely sure that one can assume the state of the neutron and the state of the screen to be uncorrelated.)

I do not agree. your analogy with the gas of particles is not valid here. Here we have 2-body problem: Neutron-Earth.

I'm not too sure that to view the Earth as a single body is a very good model in a quantum context...

 

[CHIKO-2010]

I don't think that this matters -- it seems to me that the modified quantum bouncer that's solved in the paper is derived from the assumption that the neutron's state at some height is pure, and during its fall, it 'picks up' entropy -- that's what I think is invalid. (In particular, I'm not entirely sure that one can assume the state of the neutron and the state of the screen to be uncorrelated.)

Yes, neutron entropy depends on the distance to Earth, precisely according to Verlinde. Neutron, must have individual properties at distances larger than its Compton wavelength from a given screen, otherwise this problem won't have the classical limit (classical free fall). Also, neutron is represented as a macroscopic subsystem (consisting of large number of screen microstates) on the holographic screen.

I'm not too sure that to view the Earth as a single body is a very good model in a quantum context...

Of course it is OK. The problem of quantum bouncer is a quantum particle moving in the CLASSICAL gravitational potential of Earth!

 

[S.Daedalus]

Yes, neutron entropy depends on the distance to Earth, precisely according to Verlinde.

But then, I ask again -- how can this lead to unitary evolution?

Besides, IIRC, in Verlinde's original proposal, it was the entropy on the screen that that depends on the neutron's distance to it -- for each Compton wavelength of distance, the screen 'picks up' one more bit of entropy.

Also, neutron is represented as a macroscopic subsystem (consisting of large number of screen microstates) on the holographic screen.

Which is precisely why the assumption that the states of the screen and the neutron can be treated as uncorrelated seems suspect to me.

Of course it is OK. The problem of quantum bouncer is a quantum particle moving in the CLASSICAL gravitational potential of Earth!

That's not what I was talking about. Rather, consider again the gas analogy where one single gas atom is considered as one system, and all the other atoms as another. You're of course free to do that, but then, in calculating the rise in entropy, you have to be a bit careful about 'where' that rise happens, or else, you end up with one single gas atom picking up a huge amount of entropy despite the fact that it has just undergone a reversible evolution. Both systems aren't equal, in this case and in the Earth-neutron case; one has a huge number of degrees of freedom more than the other. Seems to me that just as in the gas bulk-gas atom case, there's no need, even in order for the total entropy to rise, for the entropy of the neutron to rise in the Earth-neutron case; in particular, I think one could model the situation as the neutron being a noiseless subsystem of the screen-neutron system, which would remain decoherence-free and evolve unitarily throughout.

 

[czes]

CHIKO-2010 wrote that there are problems how to falsify the Holographic Principle and idea of the discrete space.

I have an equation which connects the Quantum with Classical:

Tp / T(x) * Tp / T(y) = -a Fg / Fe
where:
Tp * Tp - Planck's time squared = hG/c^5
T(x) , T(y) -Compton time of the oscillation of the particle x,y T=1/frequence = h/mc^2
a – alfa=ke^2 /hc = fine structure constant
Fg – Gravitational Newton's interaction Fg = Gm(x) m(y) /r^2
Fe - Electrostatic Coulomb interaction Fe = ke2 /r^2

According to Matrix theory and Holographic Principle the space is made of the interfered information which are encoded on a screen (Event Horizon) but create a 3D hologram. The equation above suggests that each quantum interference encodes the Planck time dilation. We can calculate it for each Compton wave of the particle. Due to non-locality the Compton waves is distributed in the emergent space and create the Vacuum.
Such a space is discrete made of the virtual paricles-antiparticles as the relations between information encoded on a screen (Event Horizon).
The encoded Planck time dilation creates the curvature of the space as in General Relativity and discrete Events (virtual Particles-antiparticles) create difference it the entropy which causes the gravitational force as proposed Verlinde.
We can verify the equation if it is true.
You may see the simple calculation on averaged particles for gravitational time dilation, Holographic Principle bound, Dark Matter effect :
http://www.hologram.glt.pl/

 

[CHIKO-2010]

But then, I ask again -- how can this lead to unitary evolution?

I am not quite sure what exactly you do not understand in my previous post. The equation solved is the time-independent Schrödinger equation, and the energy eigenvalues are found to be REAL. Now, time evolution of a given state \Psi is obtained as usual by applying the evolution operator U=e^iHt, \Psi(t)=U\Psi. Then it is a matter of a simple algebra to check that \frac{d}{dt}|\Psi(t)|²=0. That is probability is conserved in time, and thus time evolution of the system is unitary. Note that the amplitudes of wavefunctions are dumped in z not in t.
Don't you agree with this?

Besides, IIRC, in Verlinde's original proposal, it was the entropy on the screen that that depends on the neutron's distance to it -- for each Compton wavelength of distance, the screen 'picks up' one more bit of entropy.

Yes right. Consider two screens at x and x+\deltax with entropies S(x) and S(x+\delta x). As explained by Verlinde, S(x) is obtained by integrating out ('coarse graining') some microstates on the screen at x+\delta x. Since the entropy is an additive quantity, the entropy of "removed" microstates (they form a subsystem) is equal to the difference between the entropies of two screens. Those removed microstates describe a neutron which is merged with a holographic screen at x+\delta x, and thus neutron carries x-dependent entropy. I think this is how it is.

That's not what I was talking about. Rather, consider again the gas analogy where one single gas atom is considered as one system, and all the other atoms as another. You're of course free to do that, but then, in calculating the rise in entropy, you have to be a bit careful about 'where' that rise happens, or else, you end up with one single gas atom picking up a huge amount of entropy despite the fact that it has just undergone a reversible evolution. Both systems aren't equal, in this case and in the Earth-neutron case; one has a huge number of degrees of freedom more than the other. Seems to me that just as in the gas bulk-gas atom case, there's no need, even in order for the total entropy to rise, for the entropy of the neutron to rise in the Earth-neutron case; in particular, I think one could model the situation as the neutron being a noiseless subsystem of the screen-neutron system, which would remain decoherence-free and evolve unitarily throughout.

As I've pointed out in my previous your analogy with the system 1 atom + bulk gas is wrong, simply because a subsystem consisting of 1 atom is not statistical, it does not make sense to talk about entropy of 1 atom. A particle in Verlinde's description does not correspond to 1 atom system. in fact it carries n~m/t bits of information (see 3.14 of Verlinde)

 

[S.Daedalus]

Don't you agree with this?

Well, I don't disagree, I'm just puzzled: if the neutron's entropy at height z is different from its entropy at height z + dz, and it propagates from z to z + dz, that must mean that it undergoes non-unitary evolution, it seems to me. Right?

But then, the solution to the modified quantum bouncer derived from this assumption, as shown in the paper, leads to real energy eigenvalues, and thus, unitarity. Those two statements seem to be at odds with each other, and I'm not sure how to resolve that tension.

As I've pointed out in my previous your analogy with the system 1 atom + bulk gas is wrong, simply because a subsystem consisting of 1 atom is not statistical, it does not make sense to talk about entropy of 1 atom.

Yes, pointing that out was the purpose of the analogy; the argument being, that in the system neutron + screen, it may make just as little sense to talk about the entropy (gain) of the neutron, which both Motl (in discussing the number of microstates available to the neutron rising) and the paper (in talking about the non-unitariness of the z-translation operator, or alternatively the different entropy of the neutron at different z's) seem to be doing. And if there's no entropy gain in the neutron, there doesn't seem to be a problem for Verlinde's reasoning -- there's no decoherence due to rising number of microstates, nor is there any need to modify the quantum bouncer.

 

[CHIKO-2010]

Yes, pointing that out was the purpose of the analogy; the argument being, that in the system neutron + screen, it may make just as little sense to talk about the entropy (gain) of the neutron, which both Motl (in discussing the number of microstates available to the neutron rising) and the paper (in talking about the non-unitariness of the z-translation operator, or alternatively the different entropy of the neutron at different z's) seem to be doing. And if there's no entropy gain in the neutron, there doesn't seem to be a problem for Verlinde's reasoning -- there's no decoherence due to rising number of microstates, nor is there any need to modify the quantum bouncer.

if you do not assume that the neutron carries entropy in quantum bouncer you will arrive at a wrong classical limit, which is approached as number of bounds states is large n (large z_n). In that limit neutron behaves as a classical particle which according to Verlinde must carry entropy (again see eq.3.14).

 

[S.Daedalus]

if you do not assume that the neutron carries entropy in quantum bouncer you will arrive at a wrong classical limit, which is approached as number of bounds states is large n (large z_n). In that limit neutron behaves as a classical particle which according to Verlinde must carry entropy (again see eq.3.14).

3.14 just describes the entropy gained by the screen as the particle merges with it; besides, it should be fine if the neutron carries some fixed entropy, it's just problematic if its entropy increases.

 

[czes]

The particle increases the entropy of 1 bit when it approaches at 1 Compton wavelength to the sphere.
Does it mean the entropy of the whole spherer = sum of the number of the wavelengthes of all particles inside the sphere ?
S=n R/l(c)

 

[CHIKO-2010]

3.14 just describes the entropy gained by the screen as the particle merges with it; besides, it should be fine if the neutron carries some fixed entropy, it's just problematic if its entropy increases.

Yes, but please also note that n bits in 3.14 specifically describes a particle of mass m on the screen (see, e.g., the discussion just above 3.14 and just below 3.15).

I think the fact that the entropy of neutron must be x-dependent is pretty clear from Verlinde's paper. Again, consider a holographic screen that suurounds a mass M, say at distance x from M. This microstates on this holographic screen carry information (entropy) concerning the object M. let us put now a test particle of mass m at a distance x+\delta x from M. The total entropy of test particle + screen is

S_{\particle}(x+\delta x) + S_{screen}(x)

which can be equated with the entropy os a screen at distance x+\delta x, that is screen with a test particle on it, S_{screen}(x+\delta x). Since \delta S_{sceen} is proportional to \delta x, S_{\particle} CAN NOT be x-independent. I think this is trivial.

The equation I have highlighted, assumes that neutron states and the microstates on the screen are uncorrelated which is perfectly OK, since the creen contains only the information in the surrounded volume. If you assume that neutron states are entangled with microstates on the screen, than you will get even in bigger troubles -- to describe a neutron in quantum bouncer you have to sum up screen microstates at each x. you will certainly get decohered picture.

 

[S.Daedalus]

I think this is trivial.

I may just be dense, but I don't see it. I agree that the entropy of the system screen + particle must be greater the closer the particle gets to the screen, but this only translates to an entropy increase in the particle if you assume irreversible, non-unitary dynamics, which I think is neither necessary, nor appropriate, if you want the particle's evolution to be describable by ordinary quantum mechanics.

The equation I have highlighted, assumes that neutron states and the microstates on the screen are uncorrelated which is perfectly OK, since the creen contains only the information in the surrounded volume.

What do you make of this quote from Verlinde's paper: "Eventually the particle merge [sic] with the microscopic degrees of freedom on the screen, but before it does so, it already influences the amount of information stored on the screen."?

Besides, assuming that the screen microstates and the neutron state are uncorrelated seems at odds with your proposal to replace the neutron by a screen containing it: for then, microstates on neither screen (not the Earth's nor the neutron's) would change with their respective position, and hence, the total entropy would be independent of location -- leading to no entropic gravity at all.

 

[czes]

I agree with CHIKO-2010 here.
Due to Holographic principle the screen contains only the information in the surrounded volume. When the particle is far away from the surface of the massive body you have 2 Horizon Events. One is of the massive body with a radius R where is higher entropy and another is of the particle where is the radius (R+x).

The maximum entropy is when the body collapses into a Black Hole. The lower entropy is for the body of radius R and the lowest is for the system with a distant particle (R+x).

The gravity as entropic force acts toward the higher entropy (the future Black Hole).

 

[CHIKO-2010]

What do you make of this quote from Verlinde's paper: "Eventually the particle merge [sic] with the microscopic degrees of freedom on the screen, but before it does so, it already influences the amount of information stored on the screen."?

Besides, assuming that the screen microstates and the neutron state are uncorrelated seems at odds with your proposal to replace the neutron by a screen containing it: for then, microstates on neither screen (not the Earth's nor the neutron's) would change with their respective position, and hence, the total entropy would be independent of location -- leading to no entropic gravity at all.

I do not see contradictions here -- holographic description of both masses m and M, being at "positions" x+\delta x and x=0, requires a screen at x+\delta x, so this screen has an entropy S(x+\delta x). Note that, space has not yet emerge for region < x+\delta x, so the position of m and M are encoded in microstates on the screen.

You perhaps did not noticed but there is NO total dependence of entropy S on x. The explicit dependence on x (gradient of S) is compensated by the change in the energy due to the work of an entropic force, that is total derivative of S wtr to x IS indeed 0. That is how the entropic force is defined in the first place!

 

[Fra]

The kind of analysis I would like to see to move forward is to define in terms of an inference abstraction, the notion that Verlinde thinks is "independent".

"Starting from first principles, using only space independent concepts like energy, entropy and temperature, it is shown..."

Energy, entropy and temperature are all different measures and their definition in terms of constructable measures are far from clear enough IMHO. In particular does it seem quite obvious that each of these measures are observer dependent, and the nature of a possible observer-covariant view is not clear either.

But of course you have to start somewhere and apply the admitted heuristic arguments, so did Verlinde.

In the end he notes

"This brings us to a somewhat subtle and not yet fully understood aspect. Namely, the
role of h-bar"

I think this is connected to how the measures are really somehow discrete.

In my opinion the weakest part of the whole argument isn't that the idea is all misguided, it's that it's heuristic and MIXING baggage notions the we well understand in classical setting, but not so in the general setting, with the holograpic conjecture which is also a bit unclear. I think he is not radical enough.

Can we reconsider how the measures energy, entropy and temperature are supposedly to be rationally constructed without relying on classical concepts, or fictious ensembles etc and instead only use the state of the observer as constructing tools and see how space and gravity is emergent along with the construction?

Since all horizons are observer dependent, that also seems to hint the duality that there may be two descriptions of the same thing, one with gravity one w/o.

Even in GR we have that. The free falling oberver does not see gravitation, it's just doing a random walk. So it seems clear that gravity seems simpler from the inside perspective. Only to an outside observer, does the mysterious gravity reveal itself. To the free fall observer it's just a random walk.

So it seems what we need to understand is why two observers, both doing a random walk - attract, right?

That is pretty close to asking, why two observers that are communicating, will have a tendency to negotiate agreements. And if space; is simply a measure of disagreement, then the connection is clear.

This is the obvious rational I see behind verlindes idea, but to make it clear, the notions of entropy, energy and temperature and the spacetime structure and the distance metric etc needs to be reconstructed.

/Fredrik

 

[czes]

So it seems what we need to understand is why two observers, both doing a random walk - attract, right?

That is pretty close to asking, why two observers that are communicating, will have a tendency to negotiate agreements. And if space; is simply a measure of disagreement, then the connection is clear.

This is the obvious rational I see behind verlindes idea, but to make it clear, the notions of entropy, energy and temperature and the spacetime structure and the distance metric etc needs to be reconstructed.
/Fredrik

I would like to refer everything from holographic point of view.
The ordinary hologram is made of the interfered waves of the coherent light rays. If we assume each that interference encodes a constant time dilation we get the space-time as in General Relativity. Each object will follow the curvature of that space. An inner observer is doing random walk in his space.

There are naturally more interferences and time dilations close to a massive object. The object absorbs more interferences toward the higher density closer to massive object and accelerates. it is the Unruh effect.

Therefore gravity may be shown as an entropic force (object moves toward the Event Horizon with higher entropy)
or
also as the result of the computer program where each point of interference has encoded a constant time dilation.

 

[Fra]

I would like to refer everything from holographic point of view.

From my perspective, a version of the holographic principle is seen as an equilibrium condition, and thus I can't accept it as a starting point for the reconstruction.

This doesn't mean I think the holographic connections is baloney. On the contrary, there is interesting logic there, but it's not a starting point for me, the understanding on that is deeply entangled with general theory scaling, and theory interactions. I think it's at that level we should take the stance.

In my perspective the holographic abstraction is best understood in terms of two interacting theories. When these two theories have establishd a stable communication channel, then each theory can describe the other theory via this channel, in the sense that they are "consistent". But when there is no communication channel, they are not consistent or can be said to encode each other. It's clear here that one can USE the holographic idea as a contraints to a process where communication channels are emergent, but the problem is that it's just an expectation, the generally can collapse, resulting in a revision.

/Fredrik

 

[czes]

Holographic principle is a new approach and has to be investigated carrefully and exact.
I noticed that Compton wave length and time have special meaning in calculation.
Verlinde wrote about Ccompton wavelength just close to event horizon. I think we can use it for another calculatios. May you have seen them on my website: www.hologram.glt.pl

 

[czes]

Holographic principle is a new approach and has to be investigated carrefully and exact.
I noticed that Compton wave length and time have special meaning in calculation.
Verlinde wrote about Ccompton wavelength just close to event horizon. I think we can use it for another calculatios. May you have seen them on my website: www.hologram.glt.pl

 

[S.Daedalus]

I do not see contradictions here -- holographic description of both masses m and M, being at "positions" x+\delta x and x=0, requires a screen at x+\delta x, so this screen has an entropy S(x+\delta x). Note that, space has not yet emerge for region < x+\delta x, so the position of m and M are encoded in microstates on the screen.

What does x = 0 mean if space has not emerged beyond x + dx?

Anyway, I think we're getting a bit tangled up here, and probably talk past each other a little. Perhaps we should go back to basics: does the entropy of a neutron falling in a gravity field change with position, or doesn't it? (If it does, why?)

 

[CHIKO-2010]

What does x = 0 mean if space has not emerged beyond x + dx?

Anyway, I think we're getting a bit tangled up here, and probably talk past each other a little. Perhaps we should go back to basics: does the entropy of a neutron falling in a gravity field change with position, or doesn't it? (If it does, why?)

The starting point is a screen with an entropy S(x), where x is some macroscopic parameter describing microstates on the screen. Another such a parameter is an energy. An object with mass M is described through the microstates on the screen around it. Then take a test particle (neutron) of mass m at x+\delta x, the entropy of the screen becomes S(x+\delta x). On the other hand, this is an entropy of the screen "placed" at x+\delta x, where the test particle is also described by some microstates on the screen. Integrating out those microstates gives back S(x). Now since the entropy is an additive quantity, S(x+\delta x)= S_{without neutron} (x+\delta x)+S_{neutron}(x+\delta x) = S(x)+S_{neutron}(x+\delta x). Therefore, S_{\neutron}=\delta S~\delta x and hence the neutron entropy depends on the distance from M. So, yes, the entropy of neutron falling in the gravitational field changes with the position of neutron.

 

[S.Daedalus]

The starting point is a screen with an entropy S(x), where x is some macroscopic parameter describing microstates on the screen. Another such a parameter is an energy. An object with mass M is described through the microstates on the screen around it. Then take a test particle (neutron) of mass m at x+\delta x, the entropy of the screen becomes S(x+\delta x). On the other hand, this is an entropy of the screen "placed" at x+\delta x, where the test particle is also described by some microstates on the screen. Integrating out those microstates gives back S(x). Now since the entropy is an additive quantity, S(x+\delta x)= S_{without neutron} (x+\delta x)+S_{neutron}(x+\delta x) = S(x)+S_{neutron}(x+\delta x). Therefore, S_{\neutron}=\delta S~\delta x and hence the neutron entropy depends on the distance from M. So, yes, the entropy of neutron falling in the gravitational field changes with the position of neutron.

The thing is, you can mirror this reasoning exactly for the example of the expanding gas cloud. The cloud consisting of N - 1 particles has a certain number of microstates, and hence, a certain entropy. Let's mentally draw a line around those N - 1 particles, leaving particle N out -- perhaps it's just a little bit further from the cloud's center than all of the others. The gas cloud including the vanguard particle N then has a higher entropy, corresponding to the additional microstates, i.e. the additional permutations of the N particles that lead to 'the same' gas cloud. One could similarly 'integrate out' the additional microstates conferred by adding the Nth particle, and get the entropy of the original gas cloud back. But that doesn't mean that the additional microstates are somehow intrinsic to particle N! (Though that is a logical possibility: one could add some object to the gas cloud that's distinct from the gas particles, and has 'internal' microstates corresponding to the difference between the microstates of the N and the (N - 1)-particle gas clouds.)

Thus, that the screen at x + dx has a greater number of microstates than the screen at x does not (necessarily) mean that these microstates are intrinsic to the neutron. Rather, it just means that there are a number of distinct screens that can be coarse-grained to obtain the screen at x -- that there are a number of distinct screens that describe the same physical situation, that of the neutron being at point x + dx. That's, I think, where the additional microstates reside.

 

[czes]

The most general interpretation of entropy is as a measure of our uncertainty about a system. The equilibrium state of a system maximizes the entropy because we have lost all information about the initial conditions except for the conserved variables; maximizing the entropy maximizes our ignorance about the details of the system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy

In a cloud of gas the motion of a particle is good defined when it is outside of the cloud (low entropy).
When it is inside the motion is not well defined and entropy is high.

 

[CHIKO-2010]

The thing is, you can mirror this reasoning exactly for the example of the expanding gas cloud. The cloud consisting of N - 1 particles has a certain number of microstates, and hence, a certain entropy. Let's mentally draw a line around those N - 1 particles, leaving particle N out -- perhaps it's just a little bit further from the cloud's center than all of the others. The gas cloud including the vanguard particle N then has a higher entropy, corresponding to the additional microstates, i.e. the additional permutations of the N particles that lead to 'the same' gas cloud. One could similarly 'integrate out' the additional microstates conferred by adding the Nth particle, and get the entropy of the original gas cloud back. But that doesn't mean that the additional microstates are somehow intrinsic to particle N! (Though that is a logical possibility: one could add some object to the gas cloud that's distinct from the gas particles, and has 'internal' microstates corresponding to the difference between the microstates of the N and the (N - 1)-particle gas clouds.)

Dear S.Daedalus, You have again failed to produce a correct analogy. A system of N-1 identical particles + one isolated particle cannot possibly have an entropy higher than a system of N identical particles. This is just wrong. I agree with czes on this. Besides, I do not quite understand how your previous post negates my argument.

 

[CHIKO-2010]

Thus, that the screen at x + dx has a greater number of microstates than the screen at x does not (necessarily) mean that these microstates are intrinsic to the neutron. Rather, it just means that there are a number of distinct screens that can be coarse-grained to obtain the screen at x -- that there are a number of distinct screens that describe the same physical situation, that of the neutron being at point x + dx. That's, I think, where the additional microstates reside.

No, it does mean precisely that certain microstates are intrinsic to the neutron, since if you remove neutron (take to infinity) the entropy of screens at ANY x will be the same. I do relevant to the problem idealization here, assuming that we have two-body problem at hand, neutron-Earth.

 

[S.Daedalus]

Dear S.Daedalus, You have again failed to produce a correct analogy. A system of N-1 identical particles + one isolated particle cannot possibly have an entropy higher than a system of N identical particles. This is just wrong. I agree with czes on this. Besides, I do not quite understand how your previous post negates my argument.

Huh? Where do you think I said this? I merely said that an N particle system has a greater entropy than the N - 1 particle system, but that this entropy increase does not come from additional entropy contained in the Nth particle, but rather, from new microstates opened up to the system as a whole.

 

[CHIKO-2010]

Huh? Where do you think I said this? I merely said that an N particle system has a greater entropy than the N - 1 particle system, but that this entropy increase does not come from additional entropy contained in the Nth particle, but rather, from new microstates opened up to the system as a whole.

Sorry, I indeed misunderstood your previous post on this point. I DO understand that there is no entropy associated with an isolated particle

However, the analogy your have drawn is still not adequate:

1. Whatever populates a holographic screen at x with an entropy S(x) it cannot describe the neutron at x+\delta x, since the entropy of the screen is a maximal entropy which can be "fitted" in a volume surrounded by the screen. This is in accord with the holographic principle -- e.g. black hole entropy is given by "tracing" microstates inside the black hole horizon.

Therefore your analogy with the gas of identical particles where one of the isolated particles are associated with the neutron is NOT correct. Microstates at the screen at x with entropy S(x) DO NOT now anything about the neutron at x+\delta x. Do you agree with this?

2. The neutron is described by the screen with an entropy S(x+\delta x), which can be viewed as the one placed at x+\delta x. Yes, on this screen neutron looses its individuality and is described by the microstates on the screen.

If you agree with the above, than it is easy to convince yourself that neutron does carry position dependent entropy, see one of the previous posts of mine.

 

[S.Daedalus]

Sorry, I indeed misunderstood your previous post on this point.

No harm done.

1. Whatever populates a holographic screen at x with an entropy S(x) it cannot describe the neutron at x+\delta x, since the entropy of the screen is a maximal entropy which can be "fitted" in a volume surrounded by the screen. This is in accord with the holographic principle -- e.g. black hole entropy is given by "tracing" microstates inside the black hole horizon.

Therefore your analogy with the gas of identical particles where one of the isolated particles are associated with the neutron is NOT correct. Microstates at the screen at x with entropy S(x) DO NOT now anything about the neutron at x+\delta x. Do you agree with this?

I do. I was (and to a certain extent still am) puzzled by some comments of Verlinde (like the one I quoted earlier) regarding this issue, but the matter is largely separate from the point I was trying to make in my last few posts.

2. The neutron is described by the screen with an entropy S(x+\delta x), which can be viewed as the one placed at x+\delta x. Yes, on this screen neutron looses its individuality and is described by the microstates on the screen.

This is, I think, where I disagree. The screen at x + dx does not merely describe the neutron, but the whole system (neutron + gravitating body, i.e. the screen at x). That this screen has additional microstates/entropy due to the presence of the neutron does not necessarily imply that these additional microstates are indeed microstates of the neutron.

Perhaps to make things a bit more clear, let's look at a toy model a bit more explicitly. Take N - 1 (N at this point would be cleaner, but I wish to keep consistency with previous posts) particles arranged on a one dimensional lattice, i.e. something like pearls on a string. This system has (N - 1)! microstates, corresponding to the number of permutations of the pearls. If a is the lattice spacing, we can 'replace' the system by a 'screen' at point x = (N - 1)a -- the screen here being pretty much a purely rhetorical device which we only need to make the parallel to the neutron + Earth case more obvious.

Now let's add an Nth particle at location Na. Clearly, the system formed by the N particles now has N! microstates. We then replace this system again by a 'screen' at Na, and are then, I think, in a position to exactly replicate your previous argumentation: We can 'coarse-grain' S_{Na} to obtain S_{(N - 1)a}, and hence, conclude that S_{particle N} = S_{Na} - S_{(N - 1)a} -- and in particular, that particle N has N 'internal' microstates, which it, of course, doesn't! Those microstates are only there because of the combination of particle N with the N - 1 others. Similarly, the screen at x + dx has its higher entropy not because of the entropy of the neutron, but because of the combination of the neutron and the Earth (i.e. the screen at x).

To be sure, it is possible to construct a system obeying these entropy relations in such a way -- instead of particle N being a pearl like all of the others, it could, for instance, be some object exhibiting an N-fold symmetry, such that all (N - 1)! permutations combined with N's N symmetry transformations yield again a physically indistinguishable situation; this is the possibility your argument stipulates. But it's not the only possibility, and, if you want quantum mechanics to be unitary, also not the favoured one.

So again, I can't see a reason for, in order to have the total entropy increase, the entropy of the neutron to increase.

(czes, by the way, I'm not ignoring you on purpose, however, I have a hard time figuring out what exactly you're arguing for/against. Maybe if you could clarify I can figure out what to reply to, and how...)

 

[jonnke123]

his theories are based on findings of surroundings not of sceinces not yet known

 

[jonnke123]

so the entropy of n is not co-herent with spatial constant as say {d=^n+4^} as to wit space and gravity have no constant except when in an osmostatic state

 

[CHIKO-2010]

I do. I was (and to a certain extent still am) puzzled by some comments of Verlinde (like the one I quoted earlier) regarding this issue, but the matter is largely separate from the point I was trying to make in my last few posts.

Ok, if you do agree than you must also agree that the entropy of a system screen at x and +
neutron at x+delta x must be S_screen(x)+S_neutron(x+\delta x). Is not it so?

This is not a separate point. when you equate the above entropy with the entropy of a screen at x+\delta x, S_screen(x+_{\delta x}), you will obtain that the neutron entropy depends on the position. Do you agree with this?

This is, I think, where I disagree. The screen at x + dx does not merely describe the neutron, but the whole system (neutron + gravitating body, i.e. the screen at x). That this screen has additional microstates/entropy due to the presence of the neutron does not necessarily imply that these additional microstates are indeed microstates of the neutron.

Perhaps to make things a bit more clear, let's look at a toy model a bit more explicitly. Take N - 1 (N at this point would be cleaner, but I wish to keep consistency with previous posts) particles arranged on a one dimensional lattice, i.e. something like pearls on a string. This system has (N - 1)! microstates, corresponding to the number of permutations of the pearls. If a is the lattice spacing, we can 'replace' the system by a 'screen' at point x = (N - 1)a -- the screen here being pretty much a purely rhetorical device which we only need to make the parallel to the neutron + Earth case more obvious.

Now let's add an Nth particle at location Na. Clearly, the system formed by the N particles now has N! microstates. We then replace this system again by a 'screen' at Na, and are then, I think, in a position to exactly replicate your previous argumentation: We can 'coarse-grain' S_{Na} to obtain S_{(N - 1)a}, and hence, conclude that S_{particle N} = S_{Na} - S_{(N - 1)a} -- and in particular, that particle N has N 'internal' microstates, which it, of course, doesn't! Those microstates are only there because of the combination of particle N with the N - 1 others. Similarly, the screen at x + dx has its higher entropy not because of the entropy of the neutron, but because of the combination of the neutron and the Earth (i.e. the screen at x).

To be sure, it is possible to construct a system obeying these entropy relations in such a way -- instead of particle N being a pearl like all of the others, it could, for instance, be some object exhibiting an N-fold symmetry, such that all (N - 1)! permutations combined with N's N symmetry transformations yield again a physically indistinguishable situation; this is the possibility your argument stipulates. But it's not the only possibility, and, if you want quantum mechanics to be unitary, also not the favoured one.

I 100% agree with your statements concerning your 'toy' model. What I am trying to say is that this model describes physically different situation and cannot be considered as the analog of Verlinde's theory. in your example your explicitly assume that particles on the screen and the one added to it are necessarily indistinguishable. Again, I DO understand that individual particle cannot carry any entropy, and the increase of entropy in your example is related with the increase of possible microstates in the whole system. BTW, note that if you 'measure, identify' the state of an added particle (position, energy etc) than you won't have any increase of entropy in your model.

The situation is indeed different in Verlinde's theory. It is true that on the screen at x+\delta x, that describes neutron and Earth together, neutron has no 'individuality', since all the microstates have the same energy (equipartition -> maximal entropy). However, if you look at the screen at x, that describes only Earth, then the entropy of the neutron-Earth system is the sum of neutron's and screen's entropies, that is, neutron's states are distinguishable. After all, neutron states are those which are measured in experiments!

 

[S.Daedalus]

However, if you look at the screen at x, that describes only Earth, then the entropy of the neutron-Earth system is the sum of neutron's and screen's entropies, that is, neutron's states are distinguishable.

You could conclude the same thing from the toy model, after having inserted the screen at (N - 1)a. But whether or not the screen is there doesn't change the physics -- you don't 'see' the screen from the outside. It would still look like -- i.e. be indistinguishable by experiment from -- there now being N particles. The same goes for the Earth-neutron system: if we agree that the neutron in the ordinary, non-entropic gravity setting doesn't have a position-dependent entropy, introducing the screen in place of the Earth doesn't change anything. (Else, you couldn't later replace the neutron-Earth system by another screen and expect the physics to remain equivalent, either.) The microstates are those of the system, whether it be represented by a screen at x + dx, by a neutron and a screen at x, or just by a neutron and the Earth in the usual setting. Else, you'd expect the physics to change depending on where you introduce the screen: in the usual, no-screen setting, the neutron has no entropy, and is in a pure state. Replace the Earth by a screen, and suddenly, the neutron acquires entropy, and is transformed into a mixed state. Replace neutron and Earth by a screen, and again the neutron has no distinguishable microstates. I don't see how this could possibly square with the idea of holography, i.e. that 2D screen and 3D bulk descriptions are dual, and fully equal to one another.

 

[CHIKO-2010]

You could conclude the same thing from the toy model, after having inserted the screen at (N - 1)a. But whether or not the screen is there doesn't change the physics -- you don't 'see' the screen from the outside. It would still look like -- i.e. be indistinguishable by experiment from -- there now being N particles.

No, I think you are wrong on this. Measuring just microstates on the screen at x gives NO information whatsoever about states of Nth particle at x+\delta x. Therefore the entropy on the screen is S_screen(x) and the total entropy S_screen(x)+S_neutron(x+\deltax). On the other hand, this is equal to S_screen(x+\deltax).

The same goes for the Earth-neutron system: if we agree that the neutron in the ordinary, non-entropic gravity setting doesn't have a position-dependent entropy, introducing the screen in place of the Earth doesn't change anything. (Else, you couldn't later replace the neutron-Earth system by another screen and expect the physics to remain equivalent, either.) The microstates are those of the system, whether it be represented by a screen at x + dx, by a neutron and a screen at x, or just by a neutron and the Earth in the usual setting. Else, you'd expect the physics to change depending on where you introduce the screen: in the usual, no-screen setting, the neutron has no entropy, and is in a pure state. Replace the Earth by a screen, and suddenly, the neutron acquires entropy, and is transformed into a mixed state. Replace neutron and Earth by a screen, and again the neutron has no distinguishable microstates. I don't see how this could possibly square with the idea of holography, i.e. that 2D screen and 3D bulk descriptions are dual, and fully equal to one another.

I think you are totally confused here. In non-entropic set-up to describe gravitation in the neutron-Earth system you do not need entropy at all -- gravity happens because of x-dependent gravitational potential. Verlinde said that this potential is a fiction, the key point is x-dependent entropy associated to the neutron-Earth system. Moreover, if you do not have such an x-dependent entropy you do not have even the notion of space.

The next question then is where does this entropy come from? Verlinde's answer is that it is associated with some (yet unspecified) microstates that live on holographic screens. next, you ask what do these screens has to do with the gravitating bodies? Verlinde's answer is that microstates on each screen describes objects the screen is surrounding, according to the holographic conjecture.

Now, if you remove any of the above ingredients the whole construction collapses. That is, no screens, no x-dependent entropy, no gravity!


Coming back to the problem of quantum bouncer. It is usually solved in the reference frame where Earth is in rest. Now according to Verlinde, neutron-earth system gravitates because the change in position of neutron (relative to Earth) changes the entropy of the system. I think that this basic fact about verlinde's theory is enough to derive the result of 1009.5414. Indeed look at the perform active spatial translation on neutron, this operation changes relative earth-neutron distance, and hence changes entropy. Therefore, the operator of spatial translations are non-unitary, and the results of 1009.5414 follows. It is in fact not even necessary to argue whether the entropy change is associated with neutron or not. Anyway, the quantum states of neutron are the quantum states in the presence of gravitational field (interacting states), and these states will be influenced by the entropy change in the system.

 

[S.Daedalus]

No, I think you are wrong on this. Measuring just microstates on the screen at x gives NO information whatsoever about states of Nth particle at x+\delta x.

I didn't say it does. Let's start with the system of N - 1 particles. Then, replace those particles by a screen. From the 'outside', both those systems should look the same -- that's what holography is all about. In particular, both systems will have (N - 1)! microstates. OK so far?

Then, add particle N. Added to the N - 1 particle system, it's plain that now the system has N! microstates, while the Nth particle on its own does not bring any new microstates to the table. However, added to the system in which the N - 1 particles are replaced by a screen, the situation should be identical; the Nth particle still does not have any 'internal' microstates, and the total number of microstates still increases to N!.

You claim that, in the case of the neutron falling in a gravitational potential, this should be different. That the description of the cases 'N particles' and 'N - 1 particles replaced by a screen + Nth particle' should be different. I don't think there's a good reason to assume this; and it's flat wrong in the toy model. The entropy is not S_{screen}(x = (N-1)a) + S_{particle N}, at least not in any meaningful way, because the microstates of the N particle system are not the microstates of the N - 1 particle system times the microstates of the Nth particle, either in the case in which there 'actually are' N - 1 particles or in the 'holographic' case where those particles have been replaced by a screen.

From the fact that the entropy of a screen placed at x + \delta x is higher than the entropy of the screen at x, you conclude that this increase in entropy is due to the additional entropy of the neutron at x + \delta x. The toy model shows that this need not be so. In this model, the screen at x + \delta x is equivalent to a screen at Na, i.e. a screen replacing the entire N particle system with its holographic description. The entropy of this screen is greater than the entropy of a screen at x = (N -1)a: S_{screen}(x + \delta x) = S_{screen}(Na) &gt; S_{screen}((N-1)a) = S_{screen}(x). But S_{screen}(Na) \neq S_{screen}((N-1)a) + S_{particle N}, because S_{particle N} = 0!

I think you are totally confused here. In non-entropic set-up to describe gravitation in the neutron-Earth system you do not need entropy at all -- gravity happens because of x-dependent gravitational potential. Verlinde said that this potential is a fiction, the key point is x-dependent entropy associated to the neutron-Earth system. Moreover, if you do not have such an x-dependent entropy you do not have even the notion of space.

I didn't say anything in conflict with this. I merely contrasted the cases of non-entropic, classical gravity -- in which a neutron's evolution is unitary, and hence, its entropy is constant, and possibly 0 -- with what you claim about entropic gravity, which results in the idea that the holographic formulation differs from the classical one in the neutron suddenly necessarily having non-vanishing entropy, which I don't think can be right.

Now, if you remove any of the above ingredients the whole construction collapses. That is, no screens, no x-dependent entropy, no gravity!

I agree completely. But it's the entropy of the entire system that depends on x, not just of the neutron.

It is in fact not even necessary to argue whether the entropy change is associated with neutron or not. Anyway, the quantum states of neutron are the quantum states in the presence of gravitational field (interacting states), and these states will be influenced by the entropy change in the system.

The translation operator defined in the paper acts on the states of the neutron, and takes them to higher entropy states, which is where its non-unitarity stems from. If the neutron states were of constant entropy, that operator would not have to be non-unitary.

 

[czes]

In the experiment as above the neutron is moving toward its equilibrium, not the equilibrium of the Earth. The equilibrium is when the entropy increases, I think.

 

[CHIKO-2010]

I didn't say it does. Let's start with the system of N - 1 particles. Then, replace those particles by a screen. From the 'outside', both those systems should look the same -- that's what holography is all about. In particular, both systems will have (N - 1)! microstates. OK so far?

Then, add particle N. Added to the N - 1 particle system, it's plain that now the system has N! microstates, while the Nth particle on its own does not bring any new microstates to the table. However, added to the system in which the N - 1 particles are replaced by a screen, the situation should be identical; the Nth particle still does not have any 'internal' microstates, and the total number of microstates still increases to N!.

1. The correct analog model in my opinion would be the one with the state of particle N is determined. In this case the number of microstates would be (N-1)! The entropy then would be the entropy of (N-1) particles + the entropy of particle N, providing it is in mixed state (if in pure state then the entropy is 0). this picture is analog to the one with screen at x and neutron at x+\delta x, because screen at x has no information about neutron. Do you agree with this or not?

2. Now, I can also consider the screen at x+\delta x. in this case, yes, the entropy is analogous of N indistinguishable particles, the number of microstates is N! Do you agree with this or not?

3. Screen at x+\delta x and neutron+screen at x defines the same physical system and if you equate the entropies you will find that neutron have an x-dependent entropy. In your toy model this necessarily means that particle N is described by the mixed state. If you agree with 1,2, then you must agree with 3

I didn't say anything in conflict with this. I merely contrasted the cases of non-entropic, classical gravity -- in which a neutron's evolution is unitary, and hence, its entropy is constant, and possibly 0 -- with what you claim about entropic gravity, which results in the idea that the holographic formulation differs from the classical one in the neutron suddenly necessarily having non-vanishing entropy, which I don't think can be right.

Yes, the holographic+entropic formulation FUNDAMENTALLY differs from the standard theory. There is no limit which takes the entropic formulation of gravity into the standard potential formulation and vice versa. Why do you expect some kind of continuity? Again, there cannot be any deformation (gradual, continuous or whatever) that can approach the standard theory.

I agree completely. But it's the entropy of the entire system that depends on x, not just of the neutron.

The translation operator defined in the paper acts on the states of the neutron, and takes them to higher entropy states, which is where its non-unitarity stems from. If the neutron states were of constant entropy, that operator would not have to be non-unitary.

These are not just states of neutron (free neutron), but states of neutron in the gravitational field of Earth, that is to say, they actually describe neutron-Earth system.

 

[S.Daedalus]

In the experiment as above the neutron is moving toward its equilibrium, not the equilibrium of the Earth. The equilibrium is when the entropy increases, I think.

I think it's more accurate to say towards the equilibrium of the Earth-neutron system.

1. The correct analog model in my opinion would be the one with the state of particle N is determined. In this case the number of microstates would be (N-1)! The entropy then would be the entropy of (N-1) particles + the entropy of particle N, providing it is in mixed state (if in pure state then the entropy is 0). this picture is analog to the one with screen at x and neutron at x+\delta x, because screen at x has no information about neutron. Do you agree with this or not?

My particles in the toy model are classical objects, like silver pearls or something. They can't be in a mixed state; nevertheless, the entropy of the whole system can't be changed due to the insertion of a screen, as, ex hypothesi, the screen does not change the physics (else, holographic and 'regular' descriptions would not be equivalent). Thus, if the entropy of the system of N particles is ~ ln(N!), after replacing N - 1 particles with a screen, the entropy of the whole system will still be at that value, but that does not mean that particle N suddenly has acquired an entropy of ~ ln(N) -- it can't!

3. Screen at x+\delta x and neutron+screen at x defines the same physical system and if you equate the entropies you will find that neutron have an x-dependent entropy. In your toy model this necessarily means that particle N is described by the mixed state.

Which it can't, thus showing that this line of reasoning yields a contradiction. For a system to have a certain entropy, it is not necessary for each of its components to carry a fraction of that entropy! If you grant me that, then it immediately follows that the entropy of the screen at x + \delta x/the entropy of the system Earth + neutron does not necessarily have to be decomposable into the entropy of the screen at x plus the entropy of the neutron.

Yes, the holographic+entropic formulation FUNDAMENTALLY differs from the standard theory. There is no limit which takes the entropic formulation of gravity into the standard potential formulation and vice versa.

Well, that's somewhat besides the point, but at least Bee Hossenfelder begs to differ, claiming that both formulations are actually fully equivalent. (http://arxiv.org/abs/1003.1015)

These are not just states of neutron (free neutron), but states of neutron in the gravitational field of Earth, that is to say, they actually describe neutron-Earth system.

They are states of the neutron in a classical potential, which happens to be the gravitational potential of the Earth.

 

[qsa]

you guys are making a fundamental mistake. the entropy of verlinde has nothing to do with the statistical multi-particle entropy physics. black hole and the particle entropies are of an unkown microstate origin with conjecture of their values which are related to the energies. even unruh temp is not the usual one it has a different interpretation.that is all

 

[Fra]

It strikes me that a big problem is the understanding on the holographic principle. I think the notion that information about a black box is encoded on the surface of the box IMO signs the wrong way of seeing it. This is a typical established ignorance of how information is encoded. Usually the microstate; which is the context of the information, also contains information and this context is encoded on the other side of the screen, not ON the screen. The screen just enodes the state of the communication channels, or maybe equivalently the measurement "operators". The information involved in supporting and selecting these are somehow lost in the analysis. Extremely annoying!

But I realize that there is no point in arguing over this here, a lot of work would have to be put down to explain this clear enough to make those who are subject to this criqitue see that it's wrong.

/Fredrik

 

[CHIKO-2010]

Dear S.Daedalus, I think we are going on a circle...You are ignoring the key points in my replies and instead arguing about inessential wordings. Here we go:

My particles in the toy model are classical objects, like silver pearls or something. They can't be in a mixed state; nevertheless, the entropy of the whole system can't be changed due to the insertion of a screen, as, ex hypothesi, the screen does not change the physics (else, holographic and 'regular' descriptions would not be equivalent). Thus, if the entropy of the system of N particles is ~ ln(N!), after replacing N - 1 particles with a screen, the entropy of the whole system will still be at that value, but that does not mean that particle N suddenly has acquired an entropy of ~ ln(N) -- it can't!

Which it can't, thus showing that this line of reasoning yields a contradiction. For a system to have a certain entropy, it is not necessary for each of its components to carry a fraction of that entropy! If you grant me that, then it immediately follows that the entropy of the screen at x + \delta x/the entropy of the system Earth + neutron does not necessarily have to be decomposable into the entropy of the screen at x plus the entropy of the neutron.

The whole point in my numerous replies concerning your toy model was to show that your toy model is inadequate as a counterargument. It looks like I am talking about apples and you are keep saying that the orange is orange.

yes I understand that your example was totally classical, I just wanted to argue that it is not correct. Again, if you consider your toy model with N-1 particles and particle N with determined position and momentum the entropy of such system would be proportional to ln(N-1)! NOT to ln(N!). That is total entropy of the system is an entropy of the particle N (which is in your classical case is 0) and the entropy of (N-1) particles.

Again, the system neutron at x+\delta x and the screen at x has an entropy which is a sum of neutron's entropy and the entropy of the screen. This is simply because screen at x has nothing to do with the neutron at x+\delta x. It seems you are PURPOSELY IGNORING this part of my reasoning. The rest is written in my previous posts.

Well, that's somewhat besides the point, but at least Bee Hossenfelder begs to differ, claiming that both formulations are actually fully equivalent. (http://arxiv.org/abs/1003.1015)

Look, you have raised the question in your previous post and I have answered. Now your are claiming that this is not the point. if you believe that Verlinde's description of gravity and the standard description are equivalent than we can stop our discussion here. Judging from Hossenfelde's paper, I can say that she has no clue what Verlinde's theory is about.

They are states of the neutron in a classical potential, which happens to be the gravitational potential of the Earth.

And so what? Are you suggesting to describe Earth as a quantum mechanical particle? Fortunately for all of us it is classical with very high accuracy.

 

[CHIKO-2010]

you guys are making a fundamental mistake. the entropy of verlinde has nothing to do with the statistical multi-particle entropy physics. black hole and the particle entropies are of an unkown microstate origin with conjecture of their values which are related to the energies. even unruh temp is not the usual one it has a different interpretation.that is all

I totally agree with you. We were just trying to argue from the perspectives of the standard statistical system. My point is that the toy model suggested by S.Daedalus is not adequate, it is nor analogous to the physics of Verlinde's gravity

 

[S.Daedalus]

Again, the system neutron at x+\delta x and the screen at x has an entropy which is a sum of neutron's entropy and the entropy of the screen. This is simply because screen at x has nothing to do with the neutron at x+\delta x. It seems you are PURPOSELY IGNORING this part of my reasoning.

But that's the very bit of reasoning all of my past posts have been about! To show that, in the toy model, you can apply that same bit of reasoning, and arrive at a wrong conclusion, and hence, it is not sound in any other context. What you're saying amounts to a claim that the presence of a holographic screen changes the physics, i.e. makes it impossible for the neutron to be in a pure state; however, this runs counter to the idea of holography, in which the holographic description is exactly equivalent to the ordinary 3D one.

That the entropy of a system needs to be evenly distributed over its parts just isn't so. An example is the expansion of a gas cloud, where all of the particles could be in an initially known state, and from there, evolve unitarily, while the entropy of the gas as a whole increases. Your reasoning would have all of the gas particles evolve non-unitarily to increase the entropy, i.e. increase 'microscopic' entropy in order for 'macroscopic' entropy to rise as well -- which is just a level confusion, and that same level confusion is at work when you claim that in order for the total entropy of the system neutron + screen at x to be greater than the entropy of just the screen at x, the neutron must have a non-zero entropy.

You might perhaps argue that the neutron microstates and the screen microstates constitute different 'species' in some sense, but the fact that you can replace the entire system by a screen at x + dx that equivalently describes the same physical situation and on which all the microstates are indistinguishable shows this not to be so. I mean, how is this supposed to work anyway -- in a non-holographic setting, you agree that the neutron may be in a pure state, right? Then, going to a holographic description (screen at x), suddenly the neutron is forced to be in a mixed state. However, in a different holographic description (screen at x + dx), the (holographic 'image' of) the neutron can again be in a pure state? This doesn't make sense, at least not to me.

Judging from Hossenfelde's paper, I can say that she has no clue what Verlinde's theory is about.

Just out of curiosity, what specifically do you disagree with? Apparently, she's been in contact with Verlinde, who helped her with some clarifications.

And so what? Are you suggesting to describe Earth as a quantum mechanical particle? Fortunately for all of us it is classical with very high accuracy.

Well, I certainly don't disagree with that, and share your delight in not having to worry about quantum effects in everyday life, but I found your claim that the states under discussion actually describe the neutron-Earth system to be rather bizarre. Certainly, \langle A \rangle = \texttt{Tr}(A \rho_N) gives you the expectation value of an observable A in a measurement performed on the neutron, no?

 

[CHIKO-2010]

But that's the very bit of reasoning all of my past posts have been about! To show that, in the toy model, you can apply that same bit of reasoning, and arrive at a wrong conclusion, and hence, it is not sound in any other context. What you're saying amounts to a claim that the presence of a holographic screen changes the physics, i.e. makes it impossible for the neutron to be in a pure state; however, this runs counter to the idea of holography, in which the holographic description is exactly equivalent to the ordinary 3D one.

Its not just a presence of the holographic screen that makes neutron in gravitational field of Earth to be in mixed state, it is so because the very origin of gravitational interactions is entropic! Your toy model with non-interacting indistinguishable particles does not actually models physics of neutron-earth system within the Verlinde approach. Therefore, conclision you draw from the wrong toy model CANNOT be considered as a counterargument. Please, if you want to continue this discussion tell which of the points (1,2,3) of my reasoning you disagree with and why.

That the entropy of a system needs to be evenly distributed over its parts just isn't so.

? I never said that. What I have said is that if you have two subsystems A and B with entropies S_{A} and S_{B} the entropy of a whole system is S_{A}+S_{B}

An example is the expansion of a gas cloud, where all of the particles could be in an initially known state, and from there, evolve unitarily, while the entropy of the gas as a whole increases.

Nonsense. A gas of particles where you determine states of all individual particles has entropy = 0. Then, if you can trace unitary evolution of all the individual particles, the states of each particles will be uniquely defined at each given moment of time. Therefore, the entropy of your system will stay 0.

Your reasoning would have all of the gas particles evolve non-unitarily to increase the entropy, i.e. increase 'microscopic' entropy in order for 'macroscopic' entropy to rise as well -- which is just a level confusion, and that same level confusion is at work when you claim that in order for the total entropy of the system neutron + screen at x to be greater than the entropy of just the screen at x, the neutron must have a non-zero entropy.

No, not correct again. My claim is that a neutron interacting with Earth in the Verlide's theory carries an entropy which changes with its position relative to earth. Free, non-interacting neutrons are in pure states, of course.

You might perhaps argue that the neutron microstates and the screen microstates constitute different 'species' in some sense, but the fact that you can replace the entire system by a screen at x + dx that equivalently describes the same physical situation and on which all the microstates are indistinguishable shows this not to be so. I mean, how is this supposed to work anyway -- in a non-holographic setting, you agree that the neutron may be in a pure state, right? Then, going to a holographic description (screen at x), suddenly the neutron is forced to be in a mixed state. However, in a different holographic description (screen at x + dx), the (holographic 'image' of) the neutron can again be in a pure state? This doesn't make sense, at least not to me.

Look, I gave you an example within you beloved toy model. If you have a gas of N-1 particles and an isolated particle N which position and momentum you know, is this particle N distinguishable from the rest N-1 particles? Of course it is! If you mix all the particles, that is you do not know the position and momentum of particle N, than yes, those particles are indistinguishable, the entropy in this case increases. I do not understand why it is so hard for you to digest this rather simple picture.

Coming back to Verlinde (I am reapiting this again): A system of neutron at x+\delta x and a screen at x has an entropy S_{neutron}+S_{screen}(x) because these are independent subsystems. The same entropy must have a screen at x+\delta x, S_{screen}(x+\delta x). Then it follows that S_{neutron} is proportional to the gradient of the screen entropy. This gradient is NOT zero because it is the source of gravitation!

In your toy model: the entropy of N (with defined momentum and position) is 0 and the entropy of a gas of identical particles is ~ln((N-1)!). hence the total entropy is a sum of S_N=0 and S_{N-1}~ln((N-1)!). If I do not measure the position and momentum of particle N, the entropy becomes ~ln(N!) NOt equal to the previous entropy. How this two physical examples can be analogous to each other? (BTW, the entropy in normal understanding has zero spatial gradient, the position of a whole system is irrelevant).

Just out of curiosity, what specifically do you disagree with? Apparently, she's been in contact with Verlinde, who helped her with some clarifications.

Bee's understanding of equivalence of two physical theories is just wrong. The main her argument seems is based on the fact that if you can read equations from left to right you will be able to read them from right to left. Yes, of course, but in physics we always have the basics, "fundamentals" of a theory, and theories are differ because of those basic assumptions/conjectures are different. If two theories differ on the 'fundamental' level then although they may simultaneously describe some of the phenomena, they will have different predictions concerning for others. So let me trace down the difference between the standard potential and entropic approach to gravitation:

1. The starting macroscopic law is the Newtonian gravitational force law

The standard approach:

2. the force is described by the gradient of a potential field, which is defined in space (a function of space coordinates that satisfy Laplace's equation with certain boundary conditions)

3. relativistic generalization takes this potential field to the tensorial field

4. quantum generalization takes tensorial field to a quantized field which gives the notion of spin-2 particles. This microscopic particles do propagate in space and time.

Conclusion: Thus, microscopic description of Newtonian force law (the Newtonian potential) is determined by an appropriate limit (non-relativistic limit) of the exchange of virtual spin-2 particles between gravitating objects.

The entropic approach:

2. There force is described by the gradient of an entropy of some holographic screens. The space is not defined as the fundamental object, x is just a macroscopic parameter characterizing states on the holographic screen.

3. relativistic generalization seems to be possible, but it is in no (obvious) way is related to the microscopic description of the theory. you can formally define the gravitational potential but it is not a primary construct but rather is defined through the temperature and entropy of the screen.

4. the full microscopic description is not known, however, the basic thing is that at microscopic level no notion of space exist. Therefore, certainly there is no notion of quantized field, gravitons etc.

Obviously, these theories are fundamentally different, and cannot be claimed to be physically equivalent, although for macroscopic bodies they both reproduce Newton's force law.

Well, I certainly don't disagree with that, and share your delight in not having to worry about quantum effects in everyday life, but I found your claim that the states under discussion actually describe the neutron-Earth system to be rather bizarre. Certainly, \langle A \rangle = \texttt{Tr}(A \rho_N) gives you the expectation value of an observable A in a measurement performed on the neutron, no?

Yes, measurements are performed on a neutron, but they describe not just a neutron (free states) but interacting neutron sates.

 

[S.Daedalus]

Please, if you want to continue this discussion tell which of the points (1,2,3) of my reasoning you disagree with and why.

Your argument essentially boils down to: the complete system (i.e. 'screen at x + dx', 'neutron + Earth', etc.) has a certain entropy S. One of its subsystems ('screen at x', Earth...) has entropy S' < S. Hence, the other subsystem must have entropy S - S'. This, in general, isn't right (or rather, is only right under certain assumptions), independently of the microscopic details of the model.

? I never said that. What I have said is that if you have two subsystems A and B with entropies S_{A} and S_{B} the entropy of a whole system is S_{A}+S_{B}

There's the problem. This is only true if the two systems are composed of microscopically different species, or are isolated from one another. Think of two systems with N! and M! microstates respectively; that their entropies add is only the case if the system formed from their combination has a total of N!*M! microstates, which is only right if either both systems are still isolated from one another, or they are composed of microscopically distinguishable objects. For instance, if I bring a second string of M pearls to the toy model and adjoin it to the first one, the combined system has now (N + M)! microstates; thus, the entropy of the combined system is greater than the sum of the entropies of both original subsystems.

That the entropy at x + dx is the sum of the entropies at x plus the neutron entropy then only follows if you assume that either the system at x and the neutron are isolated from one another (in which case, how could there be any interaction between them?), or that there are in some sense different 'species' of microstates present. Neither of those assumptions has any good reason to hold.

Perhaps it's easier if we for the moment forget all about screens, and just consider holography as providing a bound on the maximal amount of entropy that can be 'stored' within a given volume, which happens to be proportional to the surface area of its boundary. Verlinde's argumentation can be exactly replicated in this setting (it must, since it's really the same setting looked at differently), only the entropy considered here is 'really' the entropy of a given volume. In this case, all that happens is that the entropy of the volume bounded at x + dx increases due to the 'mixing' of microstates, without any non-unitarity anywhere (just as the entropy of two systems in contact increases without any non-unitarity). This doesn't (and can't) change whether or not you describe it with screens at x and a neutron, at x + dx, or without any screens at all -- holography in this view is just the condition that you can't bunch more than a specific number of microstates in a given volume which is bounded by black hole formation.

Nonsense. A gas of particles where you determine states of all individual particles has entropy = 0. Then, if you can trace unitary evolution of all the individual particles, the states of each particles will be uniquely defined at each given moment of time. Therefore, the entropy of your system will stay 0.

I didn't say anything about tracing the evolution, I said that underneath everything, the evolution is unitary, even though the entropy of a gas increases -- we may not know the microscopic evolution precisely, which is why, after having let the system evolve for some time, we'd have to resort to a statistical, mixed-state description of any of its constituents, but that doesn't preclude an underlying, deterministic, reversible microdynamics; however, your argument would suggest that the fundamental microdynamics actually are irreversible and non-unitary.

Yes, of course, but in physics we always have the basics, "fundamentals" of a theory, and theories are differ because of those basic assumptions/conjectures are different.

Hmm. I don't think I'd agree with that. If you have two theories, one phrased in terms of interactions of bloops, and one in terms of interactions of floops, and both yield the same physical predictions, i.e. they can't be distinguished by experiment, I'd consider those theories equivalent. That's the whole basis of dualities, after all -- in AdS/CFT the theories don't even agree on something as fundamental as the number of space-time dimensions, and yet, their physical content is the same. It's the difference between (naive) scientific realism -- broadly, the stance that the fundamental constituents of your theory are in one to one agreement with the fundamental constituents of reality -- and instrumentalism, which basically states that a scientific theory is good if it predicts observations with high accuracy, while not committing to any specific interpretation of its fundamental elements.

If two theories differ on the 'fundamental' level then although they may simultaneously describe some of the phenomena, they will have different predictions concerning for others.

Again, I think this is invalidated by any number of dualities, such as AdS/CFT, or the various string theory dualities: those theories differ on a fundamental level, but agree on any predictions.

Obviously, these theories are fundamentally different, and cannot be claimed to be physically equivalent, although for macroscopic bodies they both reproduce Newton's force law.

Well, in all fairness, I think Bee really only talked about the equivalence between Newtonian and entropic gravity, only lightly touching on the GR level. And on this level, the equivalence is exact: everything predicted by the Newtonian theory is equivalently predicted by the entropic one; that's essentially by design. If our world were fully classical, i.e. if there were no QM or GR, one theory could at all points be exchanged for the other, they'd be fully dual.

Yes, measurements are performed on a neutron, but they describe not just a neutron (free states) but interacting neutron sates.

Well, interacting neutron states are, to me, still neutron states; they're not states of the neutron-Earth system anymore than my state right now is a state of the me-Moon system. It wouldn't make sense to say, for example, 'the me-Moon system is wasting too much time on the internet', it'd be rather unfair to lay the blame for that on the Moon.

 

[CHIKO-2010]

Your argument essentially boils down to: the complete system (i.e. 'screen at x + dx', 'neutron + Earth', etc.) has a certain entropy S. One of its subsystems ('screen at x', Earth...) has entropy S' < S. Hence, the other subsystem must have entropy S - S'. This, in general, isn't right (or rather, is only right under certain assumptions), independently of the microscopic details of the model.

Your are wrong. Once you have identified subsystems and they have entropies S and S' total entropy of the system is equal S+S'.

There's the problem. This is only true if the two systems are composed of microscopically different species, or are isolated from one another. Think of two systems with N! and M! microstates respectively; that their entropies add is only the case if the system formed from their combination has a total of N!*M! microstates, which is only right if either both systems are still isolated from one another, or they are composed of microscopically distinguishable objects. For instance, if I bring a second string of M pearls to the toy model and adjoin it to the first one, the combined system has now (N + M)! microstates; thus, the entropy of the combined system is greater than the sum of the entropies of both original subsystems.

That the entropy at x + dx is the sum of the entropies at x plus the neutron entropy then only follows if you assume that either the system at x and the neutron are isolated from one another (in which case, how could there be any interaction between them?), or that there are in some sense different 'species' of microstates present. Neither of those assumptions has any good reason to hold.

Your seems read a half of my post regarding this. Didn't I argue all the time that neutron (x+\delta x) + screen at x are two subsystems? I gave you the similar to yours example within your toy model. Are you saying that you are not able to determine neutron states without measuring screen microstates?

Yes, neutron can be DISTINGUISHED from the screen that describes only earth, that is neutron can be recognized as being different from Earth I hope you do not doubt this

Perhaps it's easier if we for the moment forget all about screens, and just consider holography as providing a bound on the maximal amount of entropy that can be 'stored' within a given volume, which happens to be proportional to the surface area of its boundary. Verlinde's argumentation can be exactly replicated in this setting (it must, since it's really the same setting looked at differently), only the entropy considered here is 'really' the entropy of a given volume. In this case, all that happens is that the entropy of the volume bounded at x + dx increases due to the 'mixing' of microstates, without any non-unitarity anywhere (just as the entropy of two systems in contact increases without any non-unitarity). This doesn't (and can't) change whether or not you describe it with screens at x and a neutron, at x + dx, or without any screens at all -- holography in this view is just the condition that you can't bunch more than a specific number of microstates in a given volume which is bounded by black hole formation.

The whole my argumentation was based on holography. A system of neutron at x+deltax and screen at x are identifiable subsystems exactly because screen at x has nothing to do with the neutron. Your analogy with the black hole is also wrong: your certainly can consider a black hole and a bunch of particles far away from it -- the entropy of this system is a sum of black hole entropy and entropy of associated with particles. Further, precisely holography dictates to identify the entropy of the screen at x+\delta x (on which neutron is indistinguishable) and the entropy of neutron + screen.

Hmm. I don't think I'd agree with that. If you have two theories, one phrased in terms of interactions of bloops, and one in terms of interactions of floops, and both yield the same physical predictions, i.e. they can't be distinguished by experiment, I'd consider those theories equivalent. That's the whole basis of dualities, after all -- in AdS/CFT the theories don't even agree on something as fundamental as the number of space-time dimensions, and yet, their physical content is the same. It's the difference between (naive) scientific realism -- broadly, the stance that the fundamental constituents of your theory are in one to one agreement with the fundamental constituents of reality -- and instrumentalism, which basically states that a scientific theory is good if it predicts observations with high accuracy, while not committing to any specific interpretation of its fundamental elements.

Again, I think this is invalidated by any number of dualities, such as AdS/CFT, or the various string theory dualities: those theories differ on a fundamental level, but agree on any predictions.

Sadly, but it seems you can't see what is more fundamental a house or a brick. The fundamental theoretical basis for ADS/CFT and various dualities is string theory. Yes, currently you have different formulations of string theory, however dualities are exactly pointing towards a unified description (M-theory?).

If you can find such a duality between microscopic description of Verlinde's gravity and standard approach I will agree that this two theories are just different formulations. However, I believe at microscopic level this theories are different (the paper we are discussing shows exactly this), and no such a duality is possible.

Well, in all fairness, I think Bee really only talked about the equivalence between Newtonian and entropic gravity, only lightly touching on the GR level. And on this level, the equivalence is exact: everything predicted by the Newtonian theory is equivalently predicted by the entropic one; that's essentially by design. If our world were fully classical, i.e. if there were no QM or GR, one theory could at all points be exchanged for the other, they'd be fully dual.

Bee simply reverted Verlinde's equations, this is not a proof of equivalence. Verlinde at least tries to justify why something he denotes by letter S must be called entropy, and something denoted by letter T is called the temperature. Can you tell me what the quantities ad hoc defined in Eqs (1) and (2) of Bee's paper have to do with entropy and temperature, other than that they are denoted by letters S and T? Yes they are constructed in such a way to
reproduce black hole entropy and temperature, but what black holes has to do with Newton's law? I do not think you can show that the gravity is indeed an entropic force without all ingredients provided by Verlinde.

Moreover, I believe that not everything predicted by usual approach to Newton's gravity is reproduced by entropic gravity -- predictions for neutron interference and neutron bound states within entropic gravity are in contradiction with observations.

Well, interacting neutron states are, to me, still neutron states; they're not states of the neutron-Earth system anymore than my state right now is a state of the me-Moon system. It wouldn't make sense to say, for example, 'the me-Moon system is wasting too much time on the internet', it'd be rather unfair to lay the blame for that on the Moon.

Ok, I think you do understand what I meant. Hopefully your state is still under the influence of Earth gravitational field (moon and other celestial objects you can safely ignore)

 

[S.Daedalus]

Your seems read a half of my post regarding this. Didn't I argue all the time that neutron (x+\delta x) + screen at x are two subsystems? I gave you the similar to yours example within your toy model. Are you saying that you are not able to determine neutron states without measuring screen microstates?

No. I think at bottom all I'm really saying is that there are many ways to break down the system 'screen at x + dx' into 'screen at x + neutron', which are all physically equivalent, corresponding to the many ways you can break down my N-particle system into one K-particle subsystem and one N - K particle subsystem: Let's associate the K particle system with the neutron, and the N - K particle system with the screen at x. Now, the screen has (N - K)! microstates; going by your argument, the neutron then must have N!/(N - K)! microstates, in order for the entropies to add up properly. However, the 'neutron' really only has K! microstates -- that's because there are \tbinom{N} {K} ways of choosing a K particle subsystem. With this missing factor, we get for the number of microstates on the screen at x + dx \tbinom{N} {K} K!(N - K)! = N!, which is the right answer.

The whole my argumentation was based on holography. A system of neutron at x+deltax and screen at x are identifiable subsystems exactly because screen at x has nothing to do with the neutron. Your analogy with the black hole is also wrong: your certainly can consider a black hole and a bunch of particles far away from it -- the entropy of this system is a sum of black hole entropy and entropy of associated with particles. Further, precisely holography dictates to identify the entropy of the screen at x+\delta x (on which neutron is indistinguishable) and the entropy of neutron + screen.

I think there's been a misunderstanding here. An area-entropy bound and holography aren't two different things -- holography just says that there's a maximum amount of entropy you can cram into a given volume (proportional to its boundary area), and if that bound is saturated, you end up with a black hole, whose entropy you can't increase and have the system stay the same size; it will invariably grow. Sure you can consider a black hole plus some particles, but this system will be larger than just the black hole alone, and in fact, the size of the black hole after you have thrown in the particles is the minimum size for this system -- this is just the generalized second law.

Sadly, but it seems you can't see what is more fundamental a house or a brick. The fundamental theoretical basis for ADS/CFT and various dualities is string theory. Yes, currently you have different formulations of string theory, however dualities are exactly pointing towards a unified description (M-theory?).

You're right, if it exists, M-theory provides such a description for the various string theories, but AdS/CFT is a somewhat different beast; the conformal field theory on the boundary is no string theory, but just an ordinary QFT. Yet, both describe the same physics equally well, despite differing in their fundamental constituents. (I hope you forgive me if I snip the discussion here; these posts are getting too sprawling to handle, and I think we're getting carried too far afield...)