It's a vicious circle.Why do people commit mass shootings?

[zoobyshoe]

Gov orders probe of ‘mistakes’ in ‘86 Bishop case

http://www.bostonherald.com/news/regional/view/20100219mass_state_cops_reviewing_handling_of_bishop_case/

Followed suddenly by:

Prosecutor says Amy Bishop could have been charged in 1986

Norfolk County prosecutors have just announced that they have located the missing files in the 1986 shooting death of Seth Bishop by his sister, Amy Bishop. The Norfolk County district attorney now says that, after reviewing the files, he has concluded that probable cause existed in 1986 to arrest Amy Bishop and charge her with assault and weapons crimes. But, at the time, the death was declared accidental.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/breaking_news/2010/02/prosecutor_says.html

 

[zoobyshoe]

I still want to know how much money do Amy's mother and father have.

Bishop, 45, grew up in suburban Braintree, about eight miles south of Boston. Her mother, Judith, was active in local politics as one of 240 elected town meeting members. Her father, Samuel Bishop, was a Northeastern University art professor...

http://www.startribune.com/nation/84855632.html?elr=KArks:DCiUMEaPc:UiacyKUUr

There's no mention of old money, or a wealthy family.

 

[edpell]

I assume Massachusetts has not limitation on the prosecution of murder cases. Will the Norfolk County prosecutor charge Amy with murder in her brothers fatal shooting? It is never too late.

 

[edpell]

Remember, the District Attorney has to file charges (they are not compelled to do so), and this would have been a losing case! A jury is going to probably listen to the mother of the dead son, who witnessed the event.

If you needed money to subvert justice, we'd live in a better and cleaner world. Sadly, human nature is all that's needed in MOST cases. M.I.C.E. people... MICE.

You may be right from a practical point of view the case may have been un-winnable. On the other hand the case is winnable now!

What does mice stand for?

 

[Frame Dragger]

I assume Massachusetts has not limitation on the prosecution of murder cases. Will the Norfolk County prosecutor charge Amy with murder in her brothers fatal shooting? It is never too late.

Ooooh, that I don't know. I don't believe there is a statute of limitations for murder, but the case would be no easier now. I'm no lawyer, but I understand the principles of law enough to know that in Mass at least and federal court, inclusion of evidence from her shooting spree would be inadmissable (prejudicial among other things).

Finally, Alabama has her, and they're probably going to kill her at the end of the day. In Mass, we don't have the death penalty, and even when we did it wasn't something we did with relish. Finally, while jail in Mass is probably no fun at all, I'm faily sure an Alabama pen must be worse.

Oh, and MICE is a wonderful acronym: "Money, Ideology, Compromise/Coercion, Ego", which was (and really still is) considered to be the sum-total of all the reasons that a person would betray their country within an Intelligence scenario. 'Compromise' for the record, in this context means to compromise the integrity or position of a potential source.

I find that it extends to the realm of human motivations outside of the virtuous and loving in almost all walks of life.

 

[edpell]

What about the possible case against Amy's mom for accessory to murder? Does not Amy's brother and father deserve justice? Do not the people of Massachusetts desire justice?

 

[Proton Soup]

Finally, Alabama has her, and they're probably going to kill her at the end of the day. In Mass, we don't have the death penalty, and even when we did it wasn't something we did with relish. Finally, while jail in Mass is probably no fun at all, I'm faily sure an Alabama pen must be worse.

maybe. the fact that she's a woman changes things.

prison here certainly wouldn't be like in Alaska.

 

[Frame Dragger]

What about the possible case against Amy's mom for accessory to murder? Does not Amy's brother and father deserve justice? Do not the people of Massachusetts desire justice?

Does it matter? She's facing three counts of capital murder in which her only hope is a diminished capacity defense, which rarely works. She's very likely going to be executed in Alabama, and given that I think you could argue that justice delivered in any state of the union is universal. What are we going to do here?... waste money on a trial for a dead woman? Put the mother, and witness, of the son being killed (murder or not) on trial without any evidence?

If she murdered her brother, the time when a viable case could have been made in court has passed. Such is the system, and really it makes sense.

Proton Soup The woman who stopped her 'rampage' (people have no sense of scale anymore) has said that Biship, having already shot 6 people, turned the gun on her and pulled the trigger multiple times. The gun either misfired, or was out of ammunition, but that is COLD while a colleauge of yours is begging for her life, and you keep pulling the trigger.

I suspect that the testimony of survivors and the potential scope and clear premedition of the crime will in fact land her a fairly swift (7-10 years probably) execution. Alabama after all, may not be Texas when it comes to executions, but it's not NY either.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Well we have to remember that this occurred 24 years ago when widespread knowledge of PTSD among law enforcement and the lay public was MAYBE just beginning. In '86 you'd still have the concept of what happened to Vietnam veterans in the fore, and while medical/psycholgical 'stuff' hadn't yet become 'cool' and accessible at the touch of a button.

That's what I'm saying. There was no one to suggest or enforce this.

It's reasonable to assume one of two scenarios:

1.) Bishop (for reasons unknown) shoots her brother twice with a shotgun. The mother witnesses it, and having just lost one child refuses to lose another to prison. Her testimony that it was an accident can't be underplayed. In that scenario she's either a psychopath or has some other galaxy of disorders, and the rest of her life follows.

2.) Bishop accidentally shoots her brother twice (not impossible depending on the type of shotgun) and she and her mother are absolutely traumatized. The grandiosity and other apparent disorders are manifestions of defense mechanisms and genuinely altered neurbiology (trauma will do that) in this scenario. Eventually in a state of depression and hopelessness, channeled into rage... she commits her crime.

Now, Bishop is claiming not to remember the event, and various other statements that are inconsistant with #2. She has four children, and a long career even if it wasn't all it could have been. She is essentially arguing that she entered some kind of fictional psychotic fugue to distance herself from having to publicly aknowledge the crime. After all, she was stopped before she finished her 'rampage'. I don't believe she expected to survive the entire event, and people like that tend to cope poorly in the aftermath of a failed suicide attempt in which all you've accomplished is murder.

These are reasonable scenarios. However, there are indications that it could be quite a bit more complex. I would like to know the exact nature of the argument she had with her father that seems to have precipitated this shooting.

As we have learned, she was previously afraid of the gun, but had decided suddenly, for reasons not disclosed, to teach herself how to load it. She said she decided to do this for fear of burglars but didn't explain why that fear suddenly overcame her fear of the gun on that particular day after the gun had been in the house a year. Loading the gun happened after an argument with her father, after which he left the house. What had she and her father argued about? Was she complaining that Dad spent too much time with Seth at the gun club? Was she a female Cain? Alternately, the nature of the argument could have been such that she was planning to shoot the Dad when he returned home (did he complain that her tuition was becoming too costly, for example, threatening her education?), and the shooting of the brother was, in fact, an accident that resulted from her being both intensely angry and unfamiliar with the gun.

I, personally, would like to know a lot more about that argument with her father, how it ties in with her trying to load the gun, if it does. A person doesn't go from being afraid of a weapon to wanting to know how to use it unless they suddenly have a motivation to use it. In the absence of knowing what exactly made her decide to tackle the gun that day, one can imagine a lot of deliberate, and half deliberate, hostile motivations.



-------

Based on what they found in the file, she could have been charged with crimes at the time of the shooting:

The analysis of the newly received documents, as well as the previously released March 30, 1987 State Police report indicate that probable cause existed at that time to place Amy Bishop under arrest charged with:
Assault with a Dangerous Weapon, Chap. 265 Sec. 15B
Carrying a Dangerous Weapon, Chap. 269 Sec. 10, 12D
Unlawful possession of ammunition, Chap. 269 Ch. 10 (h)

But:

The statute of limitations has run on all of those charges.

 

[Proton Soup]

Proton Soup The woman who stopped her 'rampage' (people have no sense of scale anymore) has said that Biship, having already shot 6 people, turned the gun on her and pulled the trigger multiple times. The gun either misfired, or was out of ammunition, but that is COLD while a colleauge of yours is begging for her life, and you keep pulling the trigger.

I suspect that the testimony of survivors and the potential scope and clear premedition of the crime will in fact land her a fairly swift (7-10 years probably) execution. Alabama after all, may not be Texas when it comes to executions, but it's not NY either.

i've lived here for nearly 40 years. you can take it or leave it as you please. but in addition to having a somewhat aggressive stance when it comes to capital punishment, we also have a bit of misplaced chivalry when it comes to flipping the switch on a woman. i don't think it's out of the question that she'll get fried, but chances are also pretty good that she won't.

 

[edpell]

Does it matter? She's facing

You miss my point the woman that is the mother of Amy Bishop may be guilty of accessory to murder. She has not yet been charged with anything. She is loose on the streets of Massachusetts. Will she help kill again?

When your own mother aids in your murder do you not deserve justice? -- Amy's brother

 

[edpell]

but in addition to having a somewhat aggressive stance when it comes to capital punishment, we also have a bit of misplaced chivalry when it comes to flipping the switch on a woman.

On Boston Common is a statue of Mary Dyer. She was hung for being a Quaker by the Puritans of Boston. They have no problem killing women.

 

[Proton Soup]

On Boston Common is a statue of Mary Dyer. She was hung for being a Quaker by the Puritans of Boston. They have no problem killing women.

your geography is a little off, methinks

 

[edpell]

your geography is a little off, methinks

It has been said the south may be overly gallant towards women. If she were tried (for the possible murder of her brother) in Massachusetts (near Boston ;) ) they have no problem hanging women.

 

[edpell]

there are indications that it could be quite a bit more complex. I would like to know the exact nature of the argument she had with her father that seems to have precipitated this shooting.

Did she intend to shoot Dad? Did brother argue with her about this? Did she shoot brother to end the argument? Did Mom aid and abet in any way?

 

[Proton Soup]

It has been said the south may be overly gallant towards women. If she were tried (for the possible murder of her brother) in Massachusetts (near Boston ;) ) they have no problem hanging women.

she'll never be tried there

 

[zoobyshoe]

Did she intend to shoot Dad? Did brother argue with her about this? Did she shoot brother to end the argument? Did Mom aid and abet in any way?

We don't know. The first step is to find out exactly why she decided to overcome her fear of the gun on that particular day. The burglary and purchase of the gun happened a year prior to the shooting of the brother. It was mentioned that she had an argument with the father that day, then he left the house. What was the argument about, and could it have made her angry enough to want to shoot someone?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Another school shooting in the news:

Math teacher hailed as hero after Colorado school shooting

...The 57-year-old teacher charged the gunman and knocked him to the ground. While an assistant principal grabbed the rifle, Benke and another teacher kept the shooter pinned until police arrived...

http://www.latimes.com/news/nation-and-world/la-na-colorado-shooting25-2010feb25,0,5461391.story

He noticed that the gunman was using a bolt-action rifle. Knowing that it would take a moment to fire again, the teacher charged. Now THAT was a very brave thing to do. He only had a moment.

 

[MotoH]

What the hell drives people to go shooting up schools? Is it to get their 15 minutes of fame or what?

 

[jtbell]

I haven't seen any reports yet about a motive in this case. The other mass shootings in schools that I remember all involved students or former students with grudges against other students or the school in general. They felt like they'd been mistreated for being "different" in some way and were looking for revenge.

This guy was a former student, but he's 32 so that was at least about 18 years ago (this is a middle school, 7th and 8th grades), when none of the current students had even been born yet.

 

[Frame Dragger]

What the hell drives people to go shooting up schools? Is it to get their 15 minutes of fame or what?

I can tell you that from the formal psychological percpective if you like. I realize that = slumming for physicists .

Imagine you want to succeed in life (maybe not a stretch), but you constantly fall short of your and other's expectations. Feeling inadequate you either isolate yourself and become more depressed (over years/decades), or you become VERY angry (rage really) and the challenges of life become focused on a set of events or people.

At some point in your life, a crisis occurs, which could be existential, or financial (or in the case of amy bishop, having tenure finally out of your grasp). Now, most people would:

1.) Buy a porsche.
2.) Cheat on their spouse.
3.) Both.
4.) Find religion
5.) Golf (ta ta TUM!)
6.) Get help, cry, etc.

If however you never developed meaningful coping skills, you suddenly feel UTTERLY overwhelmed and out of control. This is frankly unbearable for a human being, but since options 1-6 (and others ofcourse) are not on the table, and rage is RIGHT there (or hopelessness) the following occurs.

Obsession: This has already happened, and so the target is there and waiting, always. Who is less important than WHAT.
A Message: Like a child hitting, they're saying "SEE HOW BAD I FEEL?! See how ANGRY I can be?"
Significance: We ARE talking about these people. Say what we want, they have an impact, and they know it. That's life

That's usually a part, but the dual driving force is THIS:
1.) No hope. I want to die.
2.) I am so full of rage, I will hurt and hurt until someone puts me down

It's simple, sad, and very human. It is the victory of the limbic system over the frontal lobe, and it's evidence of misery both past, and created by these events.

The sad thing is that instead of using these as models for less extreme early violent criminal behaviour, and helping those kids or young wo/men... we focus on the few people who really DO snap this way, and ignore those people who constantly act out by just shutting them away.

*sigh*