Karma is a logically scientific concept?

[Serpo]

Right, I think we're onto each other. Let's stop judging so hard as a society, and leave science up to science... you know? We all live, and things happen. Some say they happen for a reason. Others believe they just happen because we're here, and something has to happen in order for the future to exist(randomization). Let's just be gatherers of evidence, if there is no tangible evidence present, then let it rest. Karma :1.) Cause and effect... yes, it exists(gravity etc, science and math based). 2.) If you punch someone, they will always punch you back... does not exist. We are all humans, we are living thinking entities, we are not bound to someone elses definition or desire(non-scientific, faith based, wishful thinking, insecure of the unknown, mythological). I'm really busy right now, so I'm having trouble explaining myself as well as I'd like, If there's anything you want me to go over and clarify, go ahead and tell me. Thanks for the convo by the way, it's nice, I feel enlightened.

 

[quantumcarl]

Do you think karma is a logically scientific concept and can be proven to be true?

The ancient meaning of Karma in India is "motion".

Check out this article:

http://www.indiaheritage.com/science/motion.htm

 

[sameandnot]

quantumcarl... that link didn't work for me.

i read the Buddha as having said that karma is reciprocation. (don't quote me, as i haven't quoted him).

i do not see how science could refute that there is a "proper" reciprocation of all events.

what they might find discrepancy in is the definition of "proper". this, i don't think, is of any major concern, as reciprocation, in the strict meaning of the term, is always proper... whether humans properly reciprocate or not, reciprocaton (karma) will work out the effects of causes, multidimensionally (...cosmically, galactically, solar systemically, planetarily, eco-systemically, sociologically, individually, cellularly, molecularly, atomically, electrically...)

to know the entirety of reciprocation is to be able to know and predict (precisely), any moment of time in the history and future of the universe, at every level, the events and conditions of it.

 

[sameandnot]

but, of course, to know the truth of reciprocation is to discern the path of "right action."

the Buddha taught the 8-fold path.

Right View
Right Resolve
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Concentration

this is the resolution of the chains of karma, as taught by the Awakened One.

 

[quantumcarl]

It really is too bad you couldn't see that page. Its been blown out of the ether. Must be bad karma.

It was cool because it listed all the terminology for force, acceleration and mass in Indian terms. These terms for these phenomena were conceptualized 2300 to 2800 y ago. The thing the site said they missed was Newton's f=ma formula.

What I gleened from this page... a small entry... was that Karma describes Motion... this includes thoughts and actions since thoughts create a wave or field as much as an action does.

This will also relate to motion and action in terms of whoever said

"for every action there is an equal and opposite re-action".

Obvious links to the common concept of Karma as seen by buddists and swamis today. Thank you.

 

[sameandnot]

word. maybe we can find a similar page... i'll do a search.

 

[sameandnot]

i found a lot, but nothing quite like you mentioned, though i saw the link "out-there". i did find some very interesting things.

note that these 5, main postulates are in the Nyaya-Vaisesika Sutra. it was, i think, the Vaisesika's who established a physics.

1. All of the universe is composed of the 5 mahabhuttas and the 4 non physicals: that is Fluid, Atomic elements, fields/force, energy, ether and space, time, mind and soul.

2. Except ether, all of the physical elements are made of discreet and distinct paramanus or atoms

3. Space-time is a frame in which the physical universe exists

4.there are seven categories of experience, which are substance, quality, activity, generality, particularity, inherence, and non-existence.

5. Energy and mass are equivalent.

the page is here: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread120045/pg1

google: "Vaisesika physics"
or search around with like terms, that you find while searching...

 

[quantumcarl]

i found a lot, but nothing quite like you mentioned, though i saw the link "out-there". i did find some very interesting things.
note that these 5, main postulates are in the Nyaya-Vaisesika Sutra. it was, i think, the Vaisesika's who established a physics.
the page is here: http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread120045/pg1
google: "Vaisesika physics"
or search around with like terms, that you find while searching...

Very nice info.

Here's this russian dude I've been looking for who had a string of equations for karma... his interview is on a hokie site but he is a physics engineer from Moscow.

Boris Iskakov who was born in Magnitogorsk on November 14, 1934.
He is a graduate of the Institute of Physical Engineering in Moscow.

... In this work he endeavors to synthesize elements of science
and religion. Dr. Iskakov has recently been interrogated and we
would share the interview with you.

... The interview comes from Russian documents so we will meander
through the translations as best we can and at least you will be
introduced to such as "leptons", etc.

the rest of the interview is @

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos648.htm

Another somewhat flakey site with some info on physics as applied to karma.

Far be it from me to disagree with someone who has been called the "Einstein of consciousness;" but I tend to think in physics a lot and occasionally find some remarkable similarities between this mundane realm and the loftier reaches of mind and spirit. Such is the case with karma.

The connection comes about in this manner: The goal of physics is to understand the infinite diversity of physical phenomena in terms of the least possible number of principles or "laws." During its relatively short history physics has made remarkable progress toward this goal with the identification of four basic interactions or force laws: gravity, electromagnetism, strong (nuclear), and weak (radioactive decay). There is a strong possibility that even further unification can be achieved.

The full article, @

http://www.epcomm.com/fmbr/editoral/phykarma.htm

That's all I get that's going to come close to supporting an objective study of the concept of karma.

 

[quantumcarl]

word. maybe we can find a similar page... i'll do a search.

The diligent people at the Indian Heritage website have restored the page I linked, not to be discouraged by the wasted time of spammers, hackers and updates... and here it is again:

http://www.indiaheritage.com/science/motion.htm

very cool info.

 

[sameandnot]

nice, quantumcarl!

that link @ abovetopsecret.com forum is actually very extensive. indigo_child provides a few very insightful pages of info on "vedic physics". i have been involved with this (ATS) forum for the past few days now... some stuff is very, very, very, very far out... conspiracy stuff, but there is a lot of very good and sound information being shared there.

i am excited to check out this link that has been restored. the vedas are absolutely amazing! i can't stress that enough. an incredible feat of human understanding.

really, when you think about science... given that it is entirely founded in logic... what is so improbable in some very gifted geniouses deriving the vast abstractions of logic, through reason, intuition and experiences, by way of objective inquiry? nothing is very improbable in that! quite the contrary...

but there is a prejudice amongst the intellectuals and academics of the west (which may be a much more wide-spread psychological disorder) that, informally, says that "it's not real unless there is obvious and blatant reason to think so." playing it safe is one thing, but the plain lack of self-confidence in one's capacity to know, is harmful. i think.

ok... thanks to ATS i am awake @ 3:20 a. now i will go read some karma physics, c/o quantumcarl... thanks buddy!

goodnight.

 

[kuahji]

To add to my view, I believe the original idea of karma is a myth & it was perhaps due to coinsidence or cause & effect. For example, Picture a person that gets angry out their spouse for whatever reason. That person then goes to a gas station & let's their anger out on the clerk working there. The clerk then is frustrated & passes the frustration or anger to another person. Eventually, that "can" come back to the original person if it spreads far enough. This is obliviously a rudimentary description of karma or cause & effect.

For those that believe in reincarnation, picture this... Suppose you are war lord & you cause mass amounts of violence. If you raise the total amount of violence in the world by say 5%, then when you reincarnate you'll have a 5% greater chance to be born into a violent area (unless you reincarnate on the other side of the universe). Or suppose, we all worked together & eliminated poverty (poverty is now at 0%). How then, can someone be born into poverty? Basically, what I'm saying is that our "karma" is interlinked. If I raise the poverty rate, or start a war, then there is a greater chance I'd be reborn into them.

To sum everything up, "karma" is really cause & effect. If you do good things, then there is a greater chance good things will come back to you... only because you have just raised the overall percentage of goodness in the world (of course others can work against it & reduce the percentage). I hope that all made sense...

 

[quantumcarl]

Do you think karma is a logically scientific concept and can be proven to be true?

I have tried to bring Karma into the realm of physics as an equation or formula on this forum for about 5 years now.

Of course I found physics formuli on the net and of course they were Russian.

They were wonderfull compilations that may have well have been in Russian because I read Physics equations as well as I read Russion... in efficiently... I can barely spell equation to begin with.

But one of the underlying themes of karma is Chaos theory. The part of that theory that explains how one... seemingly small... incident... over time... ends up influencing a very large and catastrophic incident to occur.

Karma seems to point to the fact that history cannot be changed but it directly affects the present and the future. This is because the past is a blueprint for all that we know today.

And this is how I would explain karma.

Also... it is often ignored but the word Karma is from India. In Hindu or another language I am unfamiliar with it means "motion".

So... Karma is a scientific concept simply because of the fact that the word describes a physical attribute that has been the focus of many many years of studies by physicists. How can it be anything else?

How people interpret the word "Karma" is another story. In reality it is a designation that describes "Motion".

Is "Consequence" a scientific concept?
Because that's what "Karma" has come to mean to many people.

 

[Parabox]

Karma exists, in so far that your actions have consequences

poor actions, often yield poor aftereffects

 

[quantumcarl]

Karma exists, in so far that your actions have consequences

poor actions, often yield poor aftereffects

Exacterably... Karma = Motion. A poorly engineered motion will yield a string of other poorly engineered motions. Does the proliferation of motion grow, dissipate or involve a homogenous amount of energy that simply transforms over time?

A poorly engineered motion is "poorly engineered" as a result of a badly engineered motion that came before it... and so on.

What determines a poorly engineered motion, or a well engineered motion?
Does the determination soley rely on the opinion of a human that determines this quality? ..Probably.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Does the proliferation of motion grow, dissipate or involve a homogenous amount of energy that simply transforms over time?

This is the question of ergodicity. Does the system settle down with all motion modes sharing equal amounts of energy, or does it cycle through certain states, or does it maybe do something else? Different systems, different answers, and when does which happen has been a hot topic in differential equations for sixty years and counting.

 

[quantumcarl]

This is the question of ergodicity. Does the system settle down with all motion modes sharing equal amounts of energy, or does it cycle through certain states, or does it maybe do something else? Different systems, different answers, and when does which happen has been a hot topic in differential equations for sixty years and counting.

Does this question or study include the fact that energy (motion) cannot be created or destroyed?

Because this postulate seems to answer the question. It is all the same amount of energy shifting around and transforming... but never proliferating or dilapidating.

However, one idea I have is that motion tends to cause the disipation or dispersion of matter and that over time matter is reduced back to its original wave function or field. The field is reduced as well since it is also in motion and this causes an imbalance that is corrected by... a big bang. (no laughing please)

 

[Canute]

As I understand it the key factor in karmic causality is motivation. If one performs an act with 'good' intentions it will have different consequences from the same act performed with 'bad' intentions. (Let's not worry about what good and bad mean for the moment). The reason for this is that while physical cause and effect applies to the states of physical systems, karmic cause and effect applies to 'consciousness' (as defined in theories of karma). The nature of the act itself is irrelevant to physical causation and the notions of good and bad are meaningless. However, as someone said earlier, just as physical states evolve deterministically so do conscious states. Thus for karmic consequences the nature of the act becomes less important and the conscious motivation all-important. The laws of karma are said to operate just as determistically as physical causation.

David Chalmers argues that the features of the world are 'psychophysical', i.e. they have two aspects. In this case it seems to make sense that causation has two aspects also. Physical causation is still something of a riddle in physics (i.e. raises difficult philosophical issues) so if karmic causation does as well I suppose this would not be surprising.

Quantumcarl - I'm not laughing. Do you see the BB singularity as the 'superatom' spoken of by physicists in connection with Bose-Einstein condensates?