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Karma is a logically scientific concept?

  1. Dec 30, 2005 #1
    Do you think karma is a logically scientific concept and can be proven to be true?o:)
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2005
  2. jcsd
  3. Dec 30, 2005 #2

    Pengwuino

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    Gold Member

    Well unless anyone has a clue as to what it is and how it actually works and methods of creation, no.

    It's a pretty unscientific idea too. Everything in science is objective while hte idea of "responsibility" and "making someone happier" etc etc is completely subjective. It's like asking if the sun's light is less intense if your sad today. The light doesn't know or care, its a subjective idea and science doesn't seem to like subjectiveness.
     
  4. Dec 30, 2005 #3
    karma might be true, but i think it would have more to do with intentions than actual actions.sometimes actions with good intentions may have negative effects, what happens to your karma then?
     
  5. Dec 30, 2005 #4

    mrj

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    Hi

    You might be interested in the Buddhist forum www.e-sangha.com .
    Although I'm not a believer myself, they do have a wide range of topics including some on karma.
    mrj
     
  6. Dec 30, 2005 #5
    I believe Karma can be scientifically defined. I'll use an example to portray what I mean. If I go to a gas station & give the cleric a hard time for no reason, the cleric will most likely carry that over to the customer after me. So, the customer after myself then comes to my workplace later in the day & gives me an attitude. Or perhaps it'll give the customer road rage & cause an accident. See how my actions have caught up with myself? This is obiviously a crude explanation, but it's the general idea. Basically, if you go around & do "bad" things, it'll spread like an infectious disease, & vice versa with doing good deads. I like to view karma as cause & effect rather than some mystical force.
     
  7. Dec 30, 2005 #6
    there are so many people around you, the probability you'd do something that affects you is very low... its like thinking throwing a rock to a stormy sea would make it even more stormy...
    when you're happy, look on the bright side of life, and help to others, good things happen because you notice them more then the bad things, and vice versa, thats my explanation to karma.
    its a great feeling to be optimistic and happy, you dont need any scientific reason for it.
    i love the feeling i get when i make others happy as myself, and i think life just gets better every moment.
    and its pretty good right now too :smile:
     
  8. Dec 30, 2005 #7
    There are many people, but that's my point. Your action spreads to one person than to another. Now you got two upset people, we infect two more. Understand? It's obivious some people just brush it off, but I can't tell you the number of times I've gotten an irate customer at work & I've carried over my upset feelings to the next customer.
     
  9. Dec 30, 2005 #8
    the butterfly effect exists, but it doesnt mean that it affects you for the worse, even if bad actions are what made it happen in the first place.
     
  10. Dec 30, 2005 #9
    Which is why I stated it works vice versa. :tongue:
     
  11. Dec 30, 2005 #10
    i think that people that believe in karma would even say that the butterfly effect would affect those with good karma for the better and thos with bad karma for the worse, it doesnt matter who created the first "wave" and with what action (i.e. "good" or "bad")
    i dont think that the chaos theory would help this statement..
     
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2005
  12. Dec 30, 2005 #11
    what about those with no karma?
     
  13. Dec 30, 2005 #12
    So, can i conclude that karma only happens by chance?
     
  14. Dec 30, 2005 #13
    That's only my take on the subject. But yes, in that particular version it would be chance & chance alone.
     
  15. Dec 31, 2005 #14
    if youd give more weight to good thing that happen to you over bad things, youd notice them more often and be happier.
    optimism is good karma in my view, and it doesnt happen by chance.
    but karma in the more known form (i.e. the way it was introduced by sprinter in the top of this thread) isnt explained well by the butterfly effect because it happens only by chance if you want to explain it by the butterfly effect.

    so the butterfly effect is not a good explanation, karma is supposed to be related to ones soul, rewarding people with good karma and punnishing those with bad karma, and that is not scientific (we cant see, or measure it in any way, so theres no way to know if you carry good/bad karma from previuos life). so scientifically you cant say anything about karma, it may or may not exist.
    only when you finished your iterations on earth and join the perfect souls, would you know if it was true or not.
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2005
  16. Dec 31, 2005 #15
    What is the difference between karma, and the explanation of disease and death used centuries ago - that it was caused by some kind of wrongdoing by the person with the misfortune.

    I thought the very notion of medical science disprooves this?
     
  17. Jan 1, 2006 #16
    in the case of desease, the real cause has been found, thus disprooving the belief it was a punnishment from god or whatever they thought it was (some thought bad smell caused it).
    but in the case of karma, theres no way to disproove its existance.
    by the statement that the count is related to a soul, and that the soul can live many times, you cant realy make any measurement.
    and because this isnt an observable phenomena, you cant find any other "real" cause to replace karma.
    this is why karma is not a scientific thing - it doesnt make any measureable predictions.
     
  18. Jan 1, 2006 #17
    Buddha had an idea called the "chain of conditioned arising". In it, he described that for every thought, action, and word we speak, we are conditioning the next thought, action and word we will have in the future.

    I believe that this ties in strongly with karma. I feel the only way that we can scientifically prove whether it is correct or incorrect, is to become the scientist of our own lives.

    I know from experience that what Buddha is speaking of is true (to my own perception of reality). When I leave for work, and forget to close the curtains in my apartment, my apartment is hot when I get home. And because the apartment is hot, I am uncomfortable. The "lack of" thought in this case affected my karma. Also, the chain of conditioned arising has to do with habits. If you smoke a pack and a half of cigarettes a day, and get lung cancer, don't you think that your habits affected your karma?
     
  19. Jan 1, 2006 #18
    you seem to connect karma with causality... but this is not the case, karma is carried over to next lives, and isnt the immidiate rewards\punnishments for your actions.
    and because theres no way to track one's soul, there can be no experiment concerning karma.
     
  20. Jan 1, 2006 #19
    Fargoth, thank you for correcting me. I see where I was connecting karma with causality. I also agree with the statement that karma is carried over to next lives.

    I also agree that there can be no real "experiment" to prove whether karma exists, that is why I was suggesting observation (in our own lives). Similar to how cosmology studies the universe, using observations.
     
  21. Jan 1, 2006 #20
    In my point of view, it was speaking more for the scientific mind. Past & future lives can not be proved, we don't even know if there is an after life. However, cause & effect can be proved.
     
  22. Jan 1, 2006 #21
    yes, but my point is that cause and effect is not relevant here, because people with good karma may get the "reward" in the next life.
     
  23. Jan 1, 2006 #22
    I don't see why it wouldn't. Cause & effect "could" very well still take place. Take for example, if you're a warlord & you've killed many but somehow you die in the battles. What if you were reincarnated on the loosing side? Or for another example, if everyone pitched in to help out & ebloshed world hunger, you simply can't be born into world hunger. The same would go for poverty, how could you been born into poverty if it doesn't exist? Cause & effect. Unless of course, you were reincarnated on a planet somewhere across the universe, then I'm not sure how this idea would hold true.
     
  24. Jan 1, 2006 #23
    Karma
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

    Karma or "Karm"(Sanskrit: कर्म from the root kri, "to do", meaning deed) or Kamma (Pali: meaning action, effect, destiny) is a term in several eastern religions that comprises the entire cycle of cause and effect. Karma is a sum of all that an individual has done and is currently doing. The effects of those deeds actively create present and future experiences, thus making one responsible for one's own life. In religions that incorporate reincarnation, karma extends through one's present life and all past and future lives as well.
     
    Last edited: Jan 1, 2006
  25. Jan 2, 2006 #24
    "karma extends through one's present life and all past and future lives as well."

    and because of this it doesnt obey cause and effect in a way we can observe it, because we can see only one little fraction that is one life.... and the effect of the cause can come in other life.

    it may be that you directly suffer the effects of your deeds, im not saying that cant happen, all im saying is that it isnt necessarily so. and its even more probable that what happens to us in one lifetime is influenced more by past lives then by this life - so you can try and explain good things that happen to you by cause-effect, but then you wouldnt (necessarily) be talking about karma.

    and because of this we cant proove or disproove karma - making it non-scientific.

    and thats what this thread was all about.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2006
  26. Jan 2, 2006 #25
    you can feel it, forgoth. you know it by the quality of your being and experiencing; by the ease with which you "harmonize contained conflicts"; the extent that you are free, at peace; by the enchantment found in the simplest act of being.

    it sucks to suck. everyone knows that.
     
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