Lagrangian - surface of sphere

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the Lagrangian mechanics of a free particle constrained to move on the surface of a sphere, specifically focusing on deriving the equations of motion and solving the resulting integrals. Participants explore the implications of their calculations and seek assistance in resolving complex integrals arising from their work.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation, Mathematical reasoning, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a Lagrangian for a particle on a sphere and derives equations of motion using the Euler-Lagrange equations.
  • Another participant questions the validity of the integration steps taken in the derivation of the equations.
  • A participant acknowledges an error in their integration and presents a new integral that they find difficult to solve.
  • There is a discussion about the challenges of separating variables in the integral and the implications of having the variable of integration appear in the result.
  • Suggestions are made regarding a change of variables to simplify the differential equation.
  • Participants express frustration over the complexity of the integrals and the difficulty in finding solutions.
  • One participant indicates that they have reached a correct integral form but are struggling with the arithmetic involved in simplifying it.
  • Another participant requests clarification on the arithmetic to ensure correctness in their calculations.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally express uncertainty and disagreement regarding the integration steps and the methods to solve the resulting integrals. No consensus is reached on the correct approach to solving the integral.

Contextual Notes

Participants note limitations in their integration techniques and the complexity of the integrals involved, which depend on various constants and assumptions made during the derivation process.

rolotomassi
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I have a free particle moving on the surface of a sphere of fixed radius R. Gravity is ignored and m/2 is left out since its constant.
The lagrangian is L = R^2 \dot{\theta^2} + R^2 sin^2{\theta} \dot{\phi^2}

Using the Euler Lagrange equations I obtain
sin^2{\theta} \dot{\phi} = A = const \ (1) \\ \ddot{\theta} - sin{\theta}cos{\theta} \dot{\phi^2} = 0 \ (2)
and by substituting 1 into 2
\ddot{\theta} = A^2 cos{\theta}/sin^3{\theta}

By integrating w.r.t time and using the fact dt = d{\theta}/\dot{\theta} and that theta and its time derivative are treated as independent coordinates i get
\dot{\theta} + A^2/ 2 \dot{\theta} sin^2{\theta} \ = c_1
integrating w.r.t time again i get. [Using omega instead of theta dot now.]

\theta - A^2 cot{\theta}/\omega^2 \ = t c_1 + c_2

I can't see anything wrong but I am supposed to get this into the form

\theta(t) = arccos ( \sqrt{1 - A^2/\omega^2} cos(\omega t + \theta_0)

and I cant. If anyone can help I would appreciate it a lot. Thanks
 
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Your integration of the ##\ddot\theta## equation looks suspicious.
 
You're right it was. What I get now which I am pretty sure is correct is this horrible integral

\theta = \frac{1}{\omega} \int \sqrt[]{ c_1 - c_2/sin^2{\theta} } \ d \theta

Which I also have no idea how to solve :S
 
rolotomassi said:
You're right it was. What I get now which I am pretty sure is correct is this horrible integral

\theta = \frac{1}{\omega} \int \sqrt[]{ c_1 - c_2/sin^2{\theta} } \ d \theta

Which I also have no idea how to solve :S
You cannot have ##\theta## as the integration variable and the result!
 
wow I'm being stupid today.

If i separate the variables I get \int \frac{1}{ \sqrt[]{(c_1 - c_2/sin^2{\theta} )} }d \theta \ = \ \int dt
 
Indeed, so I suggest a change of variables in the left integral. (Doing this change of variables from the beginning significantly simplifies the differential equation. You might try it instead.)
 
I start again and get \dot \theta = c_1 \int \frac{u}{(1-u^2)^{3/2}} \frac{dt}{du}du But still abit stuck. If I sub in du/dt I keep getting a theta dot term. But I can't just assume u dot is independent of u and take it out the integral either. Brain is really hitting brick wall after brick wall with this
 
So start by solving the integral then.
 
Solving the integral IS the question. If i could solve the integral I wouldn't be asking for help on solving the integral.
 
  • #10
Well, so use the substitution in it. It is a standard integral.
 
  • #11
The integral is now \int d\theta (c_2 + \frac{c_1^2}{u^2 -1})^{-1/2}= \int dt As I find it. But i get this simplifying to \int du \frac{1}{u^2 - a^2} for the LHS where a^2 is a combination of the other constants. But this is a logarithm when integrating which doesn't make sense for the answer.
 
  • #12
\int 1/(c - 1/2sin^2x)^{1/2} dx is what I've got now
 
  • #13
You are not doing the arithmetics properly then. Please show your work.
 
  • #14
That was the correct integral bar a constant, which has now been solved. Thanks anyway
 

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