Le Chatelier and Le Chatelier Braun

  • Thread starter Thread starter Telemachus
  • Start date Start date
Click For Summary
SUMMARY

This discussion focuses on the application of Le Chatelier's principle and Le Chatelier-Braun principle in the context of thermodynamic fluctuations and entropy changes in a system at equilibrium. The user explores the implications of entropy fluctuations on temperature and pressure, utilizing equations that describe the relationships between intensive parameters and fluctuations. The conversation highlights the complexity of relating these principles to specific thermodynamic responses, particularly when considering Maxwell relations and the behavior of the system under perturbations.

PREREQUISITES
  • Understanding of thermodynamic principles, specifically Le Chatelier's principle and Le Chatelier-Braun principle.
  • Familiarity with Maxwell relations in thermodynamics.
  • Knowledge of entropy, temperature, and pressure relationships in a thermodynamic system.
  • Basic proficiency in calculus, particularly partial derivatives and their physical interpretations.
NEXT STEPS
  • Study the derivation and implications of Le Chatelier's principle in thermodynamic systems.
  • Learn about Maxwell relations and their applications in thermodynamic response analysis.
  • Investigate the relationship between entropy fluctuations and system stability in equilibrium thermodynamics.
  • Explore advanced thermodynamic concepts, including the implications of convexity criteria on system responses.
USEFUL FOR

Students and professionals in physics, particularly those specializing in thermodynamics, as well as researchers exploring the dynamics of equilibrium systems and entropy fluctuations.

Telemachus
Messages
820
Reaction score
30
Hi there. I'm trying to solve this problem, which says:

A system is in equilibrium with its envornment at a common temperature and a common pressure. The entropy of the system is increased slightly (by a fluctation in which heat flows into the system, or by the purposeful injection of heat into the system). Explain the implication of both the Le Chatelier and the Le Chatelier-Braun principles to the ensuing processes, proving your assertions in detail.

I don't know how to start with this.

I know form the book that if I have a spontaneous fluctuation dX_1^f in my composite system then this fluctuation will be accompanied by a change in intensive parameter P_1 of the subsystem, and then I have this equation:

dP_1^f=\frac{\partial P_1}{\partial X_1}dX_1

And that the fluctuation dX_1^f also alters intensive parameter P_2

dP_2^f=\frac{\partial P_2}{\partial X_1}dX_1

This is how the book explains it, then it makes a reasoning based on the responses. The thing is I don't know how to relate this with the specific problem I'm dealing with, I don't know how to use the fluctuation on the entropy, and I don't know which kind of responses that will produce.

Would you help me?

Thanks in advance. Bye there!
 
Physics news on Phys.org
Anyone please?

May I have in consideration that S(U,V,N)?
 
Ok. Some time have passed, anyway, I'm facing this problem again.

This is my approach now. At first, about the notation: (r) corresponds to response, (f) to fluctuation, and (res) is for reservoir.
I've considered that the fluctuation on the entropy has a primary effect on temperature

dT^f=\left ( \frac{\partial T}{\partial s} \right )_v ds^f=\frac{1}{c_v}dQ_1^f

And then that there is also consequently an effect over the pressure:

dP^f=\frac{\partial P}{\partial s}ds^f=\frac{\alpha}{c_v k_t}dQ^f

Then for the response:
d(U+U^{res})=(T-T^{res})ds^r+(P-P^{res})dv^r \leq 0
dT^fds^r+dP^fdv^r\leq 0

Because the two members at the right are independent this leads to:
dT^fds^r=\frac{\partial T}{\partial s}ds^fds^r \leq 0
Because of the convexity criterion this can be written as:

\frac{\partial T}{\partial s}ds^f \frac{\partial T}{\partial s} ds^r=dT^fdT^r \leq 0

And
dP^fdv^r=\left ( \frac{\partial P}{\partial s} \right )_v ds^f dv^r \leq 0

Now, I've used the Maxwell relations on this, and here is the problem I think.
\left ( \frac{\partial P}{\partial s}\right )_v=-\left ( \frac{\partial T}{\partial v}\right )_s
The minus sign there is what bothers me. Because the response should attenuate the fluctuation, and written like that I get to:
\left ( \frac{\partial T}{\partial s} \right )_v ds^f \left(-\left ( \frac{\partial T}{\partial v}\right )_s dv^r \right ) \leq 0
So, it doesn't seems to be opposing to the change.

Perhaps I'm missing something here, or perhaps there is something wrong about the whole thing. Any suggestion or help will be thanked.

PD: By the way, I think this should go on advanced Physics. Please, move it if you can.
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K