Learn Geometry for Physics: 11th Grade Guide

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the importance of learning geometry for a high school student interested in physics, as well as recommendations for study materials and approaches to learning physics and mathematics effectively. Participants explore various types of geometry, the relevance of different mathematical concepts to physics, and personal experiences related to choosing a major in engineering or physics.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Homework-related
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions the necessity of learning geometry given the lack of emphasis in their education system and seeks guidance on which type to study (Euclidean, analytic, differential, non-Euclidean).
  • Another participant suggests that studying Euclidean geometry is beneficial, emphasizing its historical development and foundational role in physics.
  • Some participants argue that differential and non-Euclidean geometry are important for physics, but recommend starting with Euclidean geometry to build a solid foundation.
  • There are discussions about the relevance of trigonometry for undergraduate physics, with some participants sharing personal experiences regarding their major choices between physics and engineering.
  • Several participants recommend specific textbooks for calculus and physics, noting the challenges and depth of the material in books like Kleppner and Kolenkow and Courant.
  • Concerns are raised about the pace of studying, with some participants suggesting that one chapter per day may be too fast to fully grasp the material.
  • There are exchanges about the importance of problem-solving in learning physics, with one participant emphasizing that merely reading the material is insufficient.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of opinions on the necessity and type of geometry to study, as well as differing views on the pace of learning and the effectiveness of various study methods. No consensus is reached on the best approach to learning geometry or physics.

Contextual Notes

Some participants mention their prior knowledge and experiences with calculus and physics, which may influence their perspectives on the learning process. There is also a recognition that the effectiveness of study methods can vary based on individual learning styles.

Who May Find This Useful

High school students considering a major in physics or engineering, educators looking for insights on student learning approaches, and anyone interested in the interplay between geometry and physics education.

RubinLicht
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I'm in 11th grade right now, and I would like to know whether or not I should spend my time learning geometry as my high-school education system places zero emphasis on geometry. If so, what type of geometry should I start with? (euclidean, analytic, differential, non euclidean?)

by the time this school year ends I will have finished Calc I-III, (up to partial derivatives, vector Calc, multiple integrals, first order differential equations etc).

I would like to major in physics but my parents and I both think ee is much more practical, for the mean time, I'm just studying math for fun.
 
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Well if you're studying math for fun you should definitely study Euclidean Geometry. It's amazing to see how geometry was developed from a set of postulates and axioms by Euclid. As for physics I don't know how much geometry is required for physics (I'm in high school!)
 
Differential, nonEuclidian geometry is important in physics, but as with anything, you have to work your way through the basics (Euclidian geometry) since it will continually be used throughout your physics education (especially trig)

Although if you've already finished vector calc, you hopefully should have a good grasp on E geometry. You could start studying diff geometry after having vector calc down, as many of the ideas extend/generalize.

As for the major, one way or the other is fine but have an open mind when you get to college. I got into my school as aerospace engineering and after taking my first class, I decided it wasn't for me and switched to physics. I've enjoyed all of my physics/math classes since. Yes the engineering may be more practical which you should consider but I'd rather work towards doing something I love (going to grad school soon), despite the pay or job opportunities, than doing something that others say is the right career choice based on money. If you love EE do that but I wouldn't necessarily settle on the safer option a priori
 
Last edited:
Brian T said:
As for the major, one way or the other is fine but have an open mind when you get to college. I got into my school as aerospace engineering and after taking my first class, I decided it wasn't for me and switched to physics. I've enjoyed all of my physics/math classes since. Yes the engineering may be more practical which you should consider but I'd rather work towards doing something I love (going to grad school soon), despite the pay or job opportunities, than doing something that others say is the right career choice based on money. If you love EE do that but I wouldn't necessarily settle on the safer option a priori

And remember this can work the other way. I thought I'd prefer physics but ended up liking EE more, so I'm happy with my choice of EE.

Trigonometry is what's particularly important, at least for undergraduate physics.
 
I recommended the book by Edwin E. Moise, Geometry. Very good and challenging text. I found it harder than my calculus sequence.
 
I would re-learn calculus from a harder book. Give Tromba? Vector Calculus a shot for multivariable calculus, for the engineering physics side of things. Ofcourse you can try Courant, but that's more of a math major book (myself). Courant is heavily motivated by physics applications.

Maybe try Kleppner and Kolenkow, since you have a good math background.Lets not forget ordinary differential equations. Ross and Zill (older and cheaper editions will do).
 
MidgetDwarf said:
I would re-learn calculus from a harder book. Give Tromba? Vector Calculus a shot for multivariable calculus, for the engineering physics side of things. Ofcourse you can try Courant, but that's more of a math major book (myself). Courant is heavily motivated by physics applications.

Maybe try Kleppner and Kolenkow, since you have a good math background.Lets not forget ordinary differential equations. Ross and Zill (older and cheaper editions will do).
Thanks, I am going through kleppner and kolenkow at a rate of 1 chapter per day during winter break. I have Courant so I may Check that out
 
RubinLicht said:
Thanks, I am going through kleppner and kolenkow at a rate of 1 chapter per day during winter break. I have Courant so I may Check that out

1 chapter a day? That's way too quickly to properly understand the book.
 
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RubinLicht said:
1 chapter per day

As I wrote on another thread, "I took a speed reading course and now I can read War and Peace in twenty minutes. It's about Russia."
 
  • #10
Vanadium 50 said:
As I wrote on another thread, "I took a speed reading course and now I can read War and Peace in twenty minutes. It's about Russia."
Well it's not exactly new stuff for me. I've learned vectors informally twice and formally in my calculus class once, I've finished AP physics I, and now I'm in AP physics C covering basically the same stuff but more in depth and with calculus, the book is just to finally entrench the intuition deep within me so that I can move on to EM and reapeat the entire process.

I'm actually kind of doing 2 days per chapter but I'm overlapping the days so that one day I'll be doing the previous days chapter and reading the next chapter.
 
  • #11
RubinLicht said:
Well it's not exactly new stuff for me. I've learned vectors informally twice and formally in my calculus class once, I've finished AP physics I, and now I'm in AP physics C covering basically the same stuff but more in depth and with calculus, the book is just to finally entrench the intuition deep within me so that I can move on to EM and reapeat the entire process.

I'm actually kind of doing 2 days per chapter but I'm overlapping the days so that one day I'll be doing the previous days chapter problems and reading the next chapter.
 
  • #12
RubinLicht said:
Thanks, I am going through kleppner and kolenkow at a rate of 1 chapter per day during winter break. I have Courant so I may Check that out

But are you doing any problems? If you're only reading the chapter and saying "ok, i get it" then i must say that won't get you anywhere.
 
  • #13
RubinLicht said:
Well it's not exactly new stuff for me. I've learned vectors informally twice and formally in my calculus class once, I've finished AP physics I, and now I'm in AP physics C covering basically the same stuff but more in depth and with calculus, the book is just to finally entrench the intuition deep within me so that I can move on to EM and reapeat the entire process.

I'm actually kind of doing 2 days per chapter but I'm overlapping the days so that one day I'll be doing the previous days chapter and reading the next chapter.

Kleppner and Kolenkow is nothing like AP physics. You actually need time for this book.
 
  • #14
micromass said:
Kleppner and Kolenkow is nothing like AP physics. You actually need time for this book.
I'm definitely doing all the problems lol. Reading physics doesn't work, it's like listening to someone play piano and then saying you know how to play piano.

Though taking into account all these warnings I might end up going through the book a little slower.
 
  • #15
RubinLicht said:
I'm definitely doing all the problems lol. Reading physics doesn't work, it's like listening to someone play piano and then saying you know how to play piano.

Though taking into account all these warnings I might end up going through the book a little slower.

Oh, you haven't started yet? Well, you're in for a surpise then...
 
  • #16
micromass said:
Oh, you haven't started yet? Well, you're in for a surpise then...
Break hasn't started yet, all I did was finish chapter one and do all the problems. It was just on and off whenever I got time in class/at home. When break comes I'll be spending am entire day on each chapter.
 
  • #17
Be sure to let us know how it goes!
 
  • #18
micromass said:
Be sure to let us know how it goes!

I feel like I'm kind of being made fun of xD
I'll try my best.
 
  • #19
A day for each chapter won't suffice. You can get away with it in history class, but It just doesn't work like that with math or physics.
 
  • #20
KiggenPig said:
A day for each chapter won't suffice. You can get away with it in history class, but It just doesn't work like that with math or physics.
Seems the opposite for me. I grasp math and physics almost instantly, then I go into history and get straight Bs on tests even if I study. My A is only due to my perfect homework and class work record...
 
  • #21
RubinLicht said:
I feel like I'm kind of being made fun of xD
I'll try my best.

Really, I'm not making fun of you. I meant that genuinely. Really, let us know how it goes. If things are difficult, let us know and we might give you advice on how to handle things.

Seems the opposite for me. I grasp math and physics almost instantly

That is usually the sign that you're doing things that are too easy for you! Don't worry, that will change. Nothing is fun about not struggling.
 

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