Learning the Italian Language in order to Learn Music Theory

[bagasme]

Hello,

When I attend art course in high school, on (Western) Music Theory subject, there are a lot of terms in Italian, especially on tempo (largo, adagio, moderato, allegro), dynamics (piano, pianissimo, forte, fortissimo, crescendo, decrescendo), and curves (legato, portato, staccato).

Is it make sense to learn Italian language to understand terms in Music Theory, just like opera singers learn Italian because many operas have Italian libretto (songs)?

Cheers, Bagas

 

[PeroK]

Hello,

When I attend art course in high school, on (Western) Music Theory subject, there are a lot of terms in Italian, especially on tempo (largo, adagio, moderato, allegro), dynamics (piano, pianissimo, forte, fortissimo, crescendo, decrescendo), and curves (legato, portato, staccato).

Is it make sense to learn Italian language to understand terms in Music Theory, just like opera singers learn Italian because many operas have Italian libretto (songs)?

Cheers, Bagas

Unless you want to learn Italian for its own sake, it might be quicker just to learn the relevant few dozen Italian words.

Some of them, like crescendo and staccato, have made it into the English language in any case.

 

[bagasme]

Unless you want to learn Italian for its own sake, it might be quicker just to learn the relevant few dozen Italian words.

Some of them, like crescendo and staccato, have made it into the English language in any case.

So, in order to truly understand concepts of music theory, is it necessary to learn Italian language? I don't want to take those Italian music terms for granted.

 

[PeroK]

So, in order to truly understand concepts of music theory, is it necessary to learn Italian language? I don't want to take those Italian music terms for granted.

Words are only words. To understand music you need to understand music.

 

[bagasme]

Words are only words. To understand music you need to understand music.

I know that understanding music theory is important. But since there are many Italian terms in music, I think it is also necessary to learn Italian, to understand what those terms (really) means in the theory.

Here is the proposition for my argument:
In music theory, tempo is a term to describe how fast a music be played. Besides main tempos from largo to presto, often composers need to variate them to describe "taste" of the play. For examples, other terms can be added to main tempos (e.g. adagio (con) maetoso); or adding suffix to tempos (e.g. allegretto, allegrissimo). You might asked, "what does -etto and -issimo mean?" or "What does con maetoso additional term mean?" Your teacher might answer "rather and very" or "with greatness", respectively. Where these answers come from?
You need to learn Italian to know why.

 

[pinball1970]

I know that understanding music theory is important. But since there are many Italian terms in music, I think it is also necessary to learn Italian, to understand what those terms (really) means in the theory.

Here is the proposition for my argument:
In music theory, tempo is a term to describe how fast a music be played. Besides main tempos from largo to presto, often composers need to variate them to describe "taste" of the play. For examples, other terms can be added to main tempos (e.g. adagio (con) maetoso); or adding suffix to tempos (e.g. allegretto, allegrissimo). You might asked, "what does -etto and -issimo mean?" or "What does con maetoso additional term mean?" Your teacher might answer "rather and very" or "with greatness", respectively. Where these answers come from?
You need to learn Italian to know why.

These words are a little subjective any way. 'with expression,' or 'lively' mean different things to you and I.
Listen to the same piece by different players and you will hear different interpretations, some significant.

 

[symbolipoint]

Studying Italian is great, but to do it for so few words to be used in music is too much language study for too little of application. Study Italian for culture, history, art(not necessarily nor mainly music), language, and human communication.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Are you going to keep asking this question until you get the answer you want?

 

[fresh_42]

If you want to become an opera singer you will need to learn a couple of languages (French, Italian, German), but to understand Andante or Allegro you only have to learn these couple of words.

So if "vocal" is part of your study, then yes, learn Italian, otherwise only if you like for other reasons.

 

[pinball1970]

If you want to become an opera singer you will need to learn a couple of languages (French, Italian, German), but to understand Andante or Allegro you only have to learn these couple of words.

So if "vocal" is part of your study, then yes, learn Italian, otherwise only if you like for other reasons.

We do not know what instrument bagasme currently plays or if he/she is a vocalist. I think this would give some context.
Do you know any songs that you have no idea what the words mean but feel to you know it anyway? There are a few that spring to mind for me but it would be interesting to get your view as ESL edit or sang even better

 

[fresh_42]

Do you know any songs that you have no idea what the words mean but feel to you know it anyway?

A bit too off-topic, although I'd like to answer it.

 

[pinball1970]

A bit too off-topic, although I'd like to answer it.

Well my big ones were in Latin and although I have read the meaning since I still cannot tell you line by line what they are. I suppose that is what I was trying to convey to the op. Directions in a foreign language are a guide nothing else, they can only never be that due to the personal/interpretation factor. Even singing something in another language should not be a hindrance once the pronunciation is nailed down. Edit yes I should have specified foreign language

 

[fresh_42]

I remember to have read a controversy about what Beethoven has meant by his remarks considering the tempi. It basically said, that they were all too fast if taken literally.

I once learned (and forgot again) the two (or was it three?) verses of "La donna e mobile", but I cannot imagine to sing the entire Rigoletto without knowing Italian.

 

[PeroK]

I once learned (and forgot again) the two (or was it three?) verses of "La donna e mobile", but I cannot imagine to sing the entire Rigoletto without knowing Italian.

I can't imagine that either!

 

[pinball1970]

I once learned (and forgot again) the two (or was it three?) verses of "La donna e mobile", but I cannot imagine to sing the entire Rigoletto without knowing Italian.

I posted a long post and it disappeared so short one now.
How about this?

Fell in love with it at 8 and still love it. Notes tune chords and Maddy Prior's voice are what matters not what it means

 

[fresh_42]

Reminds a bit on Gregorian choirs, or Gaelic tunes. At least it is easy once you've learned Italian!

 

[pinball1970]

I can't imagine that either!

Translate from Italian to German to see what's going on perhaps? Then dive into the music

 

[fresh_42]

Translations are never one-to-one. "L'amour est un oiseau rebelle" is an insurgent bird. In the German version it has colourful wings. And it always sounds better with the original lyrics.

 

[pinball1970]

Reminds a bit on Gregorian choirs, or Gaelic tunes. At least it is easy once you've learned Italian!

Ok I see what you did there!
The OP is talking descriptors and I think this endeavour will be a waste of his valuable time. If he wants to sing opera and strive towards being a professional singer then I would still argue that it's possible to appreciate and deliver a beautiful piece because of what it sounds like not what it means exactly.
I think 'lover's Ghost' is my favourite vocal piece that I have sang but I would like to think the arrangement got to me rather than the words although they are also beautiful and heartbreaking.

 

[hmmm27]

Hello,

When I attend art course in high school, on (Western) Music Theory subject, there are a lot of terms in Italian, especially on tempo (largo, adagio, moderato, allegro), dynamics (piano, pianissimo, forte, fortissimo, crescendo, decrescendo), and curves (legato, portato, staccato).

Is it make sense to learn Italian language to understand terms in Music Theory,

Short answer : No.

Long answer : If somebody comes up with a new phrase to be added to the (18th-19th century Western) music lexicon, it will probably be in their own native language.

just like opera singers learn Italian because many operas have Italian libretto (songs)?

I'm unsure of the value of learing a dialect hundreds of years old, unless one regularly performs or studies in the country of origin. But, yes : most of the better performers will be aware of proper pronunciation and lyric meanings in context.

Notation is the part that transcends linguistic boundaries. Most classical music performers (that I've met) just google the words they don't know.

see also

Cheers, Bagas

I hope I've been of some help... PS: How did this question end up in a Physics forum ?

It was inevitable that in doing this I should arrive at new results, and it is perhaps understandable that in the end I have felt impelled to present these results not only in the dry form of a catalogue, but also in a more connected and personal one.
- Alfred Einstein

 

[symbolipoint]

Short answer : No.

...

Notation is the part that transcends linguistic boundaries. Most classical music performers (that I've met) just google the words they don't know.

see also
....... PS: How did this question end up in a Physics forum ?

...

This topic should be placed into Impulse Subjects: Art, Music, History, and Linguistics

 

[bagasme]

I put this thread in Academic Guidance because some music major students need to know whether taking Italian language course is worth for their music study or not.

BTW, thanks to symbolipoint for pointing correct forum for this thread.

 

[pinball1970]

Translations are never one-to-one. "L'amour est un oiseau rebelle" is an insurgent bird. In the German version it has colourful wings. And it always sounds better with the original lyrics.

This is it, now as ESL or Italian as second language in the case of the OP (or third) what would understanding the words mean?

First time I sang it I did not know what it meant, I was not sure who was dead and the woman, the 'true love' never speaks.
Reading it now and I am still not 100%, has she died and they are reunited?

There is some old English in there like 'tis,' 'thee,' 'forsook' and 'fain.'

Would an ESL student gain much from learning old English to sing this?

Two others I just thought of are Mozart's requiem and Carl orffs Carmina burama.
Pronunciation is important BUT learning Latin to appreciate and sing it, is not.
Imo.

 

[pinball1970]

I put this thread in Academic Guidance because some music major students need to know whether taking Italian language course is worth for their music study or not.

BTW, thanks to symbolipoint for pointing correct forum for this thread.

Can you let us know what you play? Or are you a singer?

 

[bagasme]

Can you let us know what you play? Or are you a singer?

pinball1970, what I discussed here is happened on high school, especially at grade 11.

Nevertheless, this thread is also for music major student.

 

[jtbell]

When I attend art course in high school, on (Western) Music Theory subject, there are a lot of terms in Italian, especially on tempo (largo, adagio, moderato, allegro), dynamics (piano, pianissimo, forte, fortissimo, crescendo, decrescendo), and curves (legato, portato, staccato).

Don't forget French and German.

Ravel: Valses nobles et sentimentales
1. Modéré
2. Assez lent
3. Modéré
4. Assez animé
5. Presque lent
6. Assez vif
7. Moins vif
8. Épilogue: Lent

Mahler: Symphony No. 4
1. Bedächtig. Nicht eilen
2. In gemächlicher Bewegung. Ohne Hast
3. Ruhevoll
4. Sehr behaglich

 

[bagasme]

Are you going to keep asking this question until you get the answer you want?

OK, I got the conclusion: It is unnecessary to learn the whole Italian when learning music theory, unless you want to be (opera) singer.

 

[Aufbauwerk 2045]

I can think of many good reasons to learn Italian, but learning an entire language just to understand a few technical words seems illogical. That would be like saying scientists need to learn Greek in order to understand science, because so many scientific words have Greek roots. It makes no sense.

Any good music dictionary lists all the important music terms, including the Italian ones, along with definitions. That's all you need. There are plenty of music theory books in English. Actually the most famous one in history is the Gradus ad Parnassum by Johannes Fux. It was written in Latin. That doesn't mean you need to learn Latin.

On the other hand, I happen to be trying to learn Italian, just because Italian is so beautiful and there is lots of news I want to read and videos to watch in Italian. Also there is obviously lots of famous vocal music in Italian. They also make some great films. The best painters, in my opinion, are Italian. Also, in my opinion, the best architecture. In terms of style, I would say the Italians make the best cars. No one has ever made better violins. Of course the Renaissance began in Italy. Even our system here in the USA is based in many ways on the ancient Roman republic. In my mind, culturally and spiritually speaking all roads lead to Rome. I've found that one-on-one Italians are quite sympatico. So I'm attracted to learning Italian. I don't need a specific reason. I just want to learn it. So I am going to learn it.

By the way I did take some voice lessons when I was young. Sure enough the instructor had me learn how to sing Italian songs, even though at that time I knew no Italian. But I got the translation of those particular words.

If anyone knows some particularly good YouTube channels for learning Italian, maybe they could let us both know?

P.S. my favorite choirs happen to be Italian. For example, the choir of Duomo di Milano and of course the Sistina. This makes me wonder why Italians are so great at music. If I was a professional musician as opposed to an amateur, I would want to study Italian and go there just to learn why Italian music is the way it is. Maybe it's something you need to live there and learn from experience with other musicians. I think it makes perfect sense for someone who is very interested in music to learn Italian.

But as I said earlier, you don't need to learn it just to understand basic music theory. Too bad this is not a music forum. I enjoy discussing this topic very much. But I will stop now because it's a physics forum. Perhaps someone wants to discuss Fourier analysis and synthesis in music software? How about sound synthesis based on physical modeling of instruments or voices? But as Rachmaninoff said, "music is a spiritual activity." I've done some work on music software, including synthesizers and algorithmic composition. Frankly it left me cold. It was nothing more than an intellectual activity. I had to revive myself spiritually by listening to real instruments and real human voices like these.


The music starts after 3:30. Any Italians wish to translate what he says before that? The song is "Va, pensiero" or as we English speakers refer to it "The chorus of the Hebrew slaves" from Verdi's Nabucco. Translations are readily available elsewhere.

 

[Aufbauwerk 2045]

This is it, now as ESL or Italian as second language in the case of the OP (or third) what would understanding the words mean?

First time I sang it I did not know what it meant, I was not sure who was dead and the woman, the 'true love' never speaks.
Reading it now and I am still not 100%, has she died and they are reunited?

There is some old English in there like 'tis,' 'thee,' 'forsook' and 'fain.'

Would an ESL student gain much from learning old English to sing this?

Two others I just thought of are Mozart's requiem and Carl orffs Carmina burama.
Pronunciation is important BUT learning Latin to appreciate and sing it, is not.
Imo.

In Latin class my teacher was a big fan of Carmina Burana and even though I had problems in that class, he did make Latin come alive by having us sing along with him. I could not pass a Latin test today, but if you learn what the words in a particular song mean it's all the Latin you need to understand that song.

 

[symbolipoint]

#28 post of Aufbauwerk 2045 describes good reasons to learn Italian language far beyond just any interest in a few terminologies applied in music.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

I've had a couple semesters of music theory and not knowing Italian has not kept me from being a fairly successful amateur. I'm the worship director of a small local church, I give introductory lessons in guitar and bass, my YouTube music channel gets over 1000 views a month, and I can play guitar, bass, or keyboards depending on the need. I've also written a physics paper or two relating music theory to physics.

My lack of knowledge of Italian has never been a hindrance to my musical accomplishments. The biggest hindrance to my musical accomplishments is practice time. At 3-5 hours per week, most of my practice time is spent learning new songs and re-learning older songs to have adequate mastery for weekly performances - mostly in church. I'm good enough not to get in the way of positive experiences for the audience and other musicians. But development of real professional level talent would require 20 hours a week or more of practice. Being better at music theory (or Italian) probably would not help much.

When choosing musicians to perform with us, mastery of music theory is hardly a consideration. My biggest concern musically is whether they are willing to practice and have the humility to blend in with the rest of the team rather than trying to show off. Talent wise, they only need to be good enough not to become a distraction to the audience. If they are willing to practice, it's a safe bet they will be improving.

 

[pinball1970]

I've had a couple semesters of music theory and not knowing Italian has not kept me from being a fairly successful amateur. I'm the worship director of a small local church, I give introductory lessons in guitar and bass, my YouTube music channel gets over 1000 views a month, and I can play guitar, bass, or keyboards depending on the need. I've also written a physics paper or two relating music theory to physics.

My lack of knowledge of Italian has never been a hindrance to my musical accomplishments. The biggest hindrance to my musical accomplishments is practice time. At 3-5 hours per week, most of my practice time is spent learning new songs and re-learning older songs to have adequate mastery for weekly performances - mostly in church. I'm good enough not to get in the way of positive experiences for the audience and other musicians. But development of real professional level talent would require 20 hours a week or more of practice. Being better at music theory (or Italian) probably would not help much.

When choosing musicians to perform with us, mastery of music theory is hardly a consideration. My biggest concern musically is whether they are willing to practice and have the humility to blend in with the rest of the team rather than trying to show off. Talent wise, they only need to be good enough not to become a distraction to the audience. If they are willing to practice, it's a safe bet they will be improving.

Yes. Practice practice practice.
Ability essential if you want to be a professional. Like many careers.