Let us assume Feynman was wrong.

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    Feynman
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the interpretation of quantum mechanics and the validity of Richard Feynman's assertion that no deeper explanation exists for the laws governing quantum phenomena. Participants explore various theories and interpretations, questioning the foundational principles of quantum mechanics and whether alternative explanations can be proposed.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express skepticism about Feynman's claim, suggesting that there may be deeper representations or underlying principles that explain quantum mechanics beyond its current mathematical framework.
  • One participant proposes that quantum mechanics is fundamentally about probabilities and that a deeper cause must exist, potentially drawing from principles of relativity.
  • Another participant questions what more basic principles could underlie quantum mechanics, suggesting that logic itself might be a foundational aspect from which physics could be derived.
  • A participant mentions a school of thought that interprets quantum behavior as a result of classical electrodynamics, referencing specific papers that support this view.
  • The Bohmian (pilot wave) interpretation is suggested as a possible deeper representation of quantum mechanics, countering Feynman's assertion.
  • Some participants argue that Feynman was not wrong, asserting that there are no widely accepted ideas from which quantum mechanics can be deduced.
  • One participant introduces the idea that reality could be understood as a computational construct, proposing an "information space" that underlies physical phenomena.
  • Another participant highlights the existence of multiple interpretations of quantum mechanics, noting that while many ideas exist about what lies behind the mathematics, there is no experimental way to distinguish between them.
  • Some participants defend Feynman's perspective, arguing that his statements about quantum mechanics remain valid and reflect the current understanding of the field.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit a range of views, with no consensus on whether Feynman was wrong or if deeper explanations exist for quantum mechanics. Multiple competing interpretations and theories are presented, indicating an unresolved debate.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various interpretations and theories without reaching a definitive conclusion. The discussion reflects ongoing uncertainty regarding the foundational aspects of quantum mechanics and the implications of Feynman's statements.

  • #91
Dmitry67 said:
Where? In Greece. Check Platonism.

I think the pythagoreans came first. I assume you mean applying math to problems like finding the hypotenuse of a triangle or other geometry. Or do you mean applying math to explain why things happen like all our theories do now?
 
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  • #92
AUMathTutor said:
First off, to whomever said that "physics was fundamentally math", I disagree but would like to discuss. Also, anyone believing that the universe is mathematical can feel free to discuss this with me as well; I don't necessarily believe that mathematics has anything to do with how reality actually is.

Also, camboy:
I'm not sure I follow your logic. So if Feynman says that nobody knows the machinery of QM, but Bohm says he knows, how do you know Bohm is right? Your argument seems to rest on the fact that it's not fair to say Bohm is wrong since he can't be proven wrong, but then you go on to say that he's right. I don't think it's fair to draw this conclusion either... in fact, science is such that we'll never know if any of it is right, or just works by some strange coincidence.

Love your post - you appear to be totally rational (at this stage anyway!).

I too, now think that the universe is mathematical in essence - at least informational. I have a lot of reasons stemming from QM, QFT, philosophies, computing and classical physics.

Recently I realized how it could actually be achieved. The idea of particles made of mathematics or geometric shapes- platos triangles flying around did not make sense (how do they do it?), but particles made in von Neumann-like machines does make sense (to me at least). It explains a lot of quantum bizarreness easily.

It needs an 'information space' that feeds into physical space through, maybe, Heisenberg uncertainty regions at the quantum level. This space is outside physical space and creates it as an illusion. (this ties up nicely with many philosophies)

But to believe it one has to accept that we are all sitting next to each other and made of numbers! Thats hard to swallow! (well? so what? - a mobile telephone call is a stream of numbers flying through the air, and a 3d video game originates entirely in numbers!)
 
  • #93
Here's something to think about, though... maybe it doesn't make a lot of sense, but perhaps you can unravel it for me.

First off, I would like to distinguish between the terms "mathematics" and "metamathematics".

By "mathematics" I will mean the (finite, or potentially infinite) set of truths derivable from logic and associated philosophies. "Mathematics" is what we write down, talk about, and use to solve problems.

By "metamathematics", I will mean the (actually infinite - see below) set of truths or principles upon which reality is based. "Metamathematics" includes those hidden processes and relationships which govern the nature of things, according to your (and others') belief in the MUH.

Therefore the problem boils down to whether or not there is really a "metamathematics" at all - you are convinced there is, and I am led to believe there is not.

In the ZFC set theory axioms, a set is not allowed to belong to itself. If the set of metamathematical truths were finite, then it would be possible (in theory) to list them all. However, such a list would contain a statement of all metamathematical truths, which would be semantically equivalent to metamathematics. So metamathematics would have to "contain itself", as it were, if there were only finitely many truths in it. Therefore, we can conclude that there are infinitely many metamathematical truths, given that the ZFC axioms, and the resolution to Russel's Paradox, are correct.

Another interesting note is that, if there is a metamathematics, I don't think our mathematics would have anything to do with it. Here's my reasoning: I'm not sure how any system can simultaneously encode its information along with a means for expressing that information, if the means for expressing it must also be included in the information. Let me try to come up with a concrete example.

Say you want to write a very simple, single program that saves a copy of itself to disk. Assume there is no OS to do it for you; the only thing you can do is write immediate data to the disk.

It's simple enough to copy the rest of the program, with the saving procedure excluded, and write that to disk. If your total program took 100 lines and the saving procedure took 20 lines, you would write 80 lines to disk and be done.

However, you want to write a program that's also capable of copying itself; one which can not only provide a representation of itself, but which can do so in such a way that the representation can also represent itself, and so on ad infinitum.

I think that with a little thought you'll agree that it's not possible to do this unless you have a third party come in and act on the whole program without the program's intervention.

So what does this all have to do with us? Well, if metamathematics really existed, it would have to encode in itself a way in which to represent it, that is, mathematics. Remember, mathematics (if it has anything to do with metamathematics) *is* the way to encode metamathematics. Anyway, I think you'll also agree it's reasonable to say that we have ways of encoding mathematics (notations, conventions, etc.) Ergo, metamathematics must be capable of representing not only a non-empty subset of itself, but also the rules for encoding this non-empty subset of rules.

And herein lies the rub: even if you assume metamathematics, there must be a higher level of abstraction - a manager - if our mathematics is to have anything to do with metamathematics. And if metamathematics is completely unrelated to mathematics, then why think of it like mathematics at all?
 
  • #94
AUMathTutor said:
Here's something to think about, though... maybe it doesn't make a lot of sense, but perhaps you can unravel it for me.

First off, I would like to distinguish between the terms "mathematics" and "metamathematics".

By "mathematics" I will mean the (finite, or potentially infinite) set of truths derivable from logic and associated philosophies. "Mathematics" is what we write down, talk about, and use to solve problems.

By "metamathematics", I will mean the (actually infinite - see below) set of truths or principles upon which reality is based. "Metamathematics" includes those hidden processes and relationships which govern the nature of things, according to your (and others') belief in the MUH.

Therefore the problem boils down to whether or not there is really a "metamathematics" at all - you are convinced there is, and I am led to believe there is not.

In the ZFC set theory axioms, a set is not allowed to belong to itself. If the set of metamathematical truths were finite, then it would be possible (in theory) to list them all. However, such a list would contain a statement of all metamathematical truths, which would be semantically equivalent to metamathematics. So metamathematics would have to "contain itself", as it were, if there were only finitely many truths in it. Therefore, we can conclude that there are infinitely many metamathematical truths, given that the ZFC axioms, and the resolution to Russel's Paradox, are correct.

Another interesting note is that, if there is a metamathematics, I don't think our mathematics would have anything to do with it. Here's my reasoning: I'm not sure how any system can simultaneously encode its information along with a means for expressing that information, if the means for expressing it must also be included in the information. Let me try to come up with a concrete example.

Say you want to write a very simple, single program that saves a copy of itself to disk. Assume there is no OS to do it for you; the only thing you can do is write immediate data to the disk.

It's simple enough to copy the rest of the program, with the saving procedure excluded, and write that to disk. If your total program took 100 lines and the saving procedure took 20 lines, you would write 80 lines to disk and be done.

However, you want to write a program that's also capable of copying itself; one which can not only provide a representation of itself, but which can do so in such a way that the representation can also represent itself, and so on ad infinitum.

I think that with a little thought you'll agree that it's not possible to do this unless you have a third party come in and act on the whole program without the program's intervention.

So what does this all have to do with us? Well, if metamathematics really existed, it would have to encode in itself a way in which to represent it, that is, mathematics. Remember, mathematics (if it has anything to do with metamathematics) *is* the way to encode metamathematics. Anyway, I think you'll also agree it's reasonable to say that we have ways of encoding mathematics (notations, conventions, etc.) Ergo, metamathematics must be capable of representing not only a non-empty subset of itself, but also the rules for encoding this non-empty subset of rules.

And herein lies the rub: even if you assume metamathematics, there must be a higher level of abstraction - a manager - if our mathematics is to have anything to do with metamathematics. And if metamathematics is completely unrelated to mathematics, then why think of it like mathematics at all?

I have skim read your very interesting post (about metamathematics etc) but will re-read it more closely when I have more time (there is a lot to read).
I think one of your points is whether algorithmic objects that use complex mathematical structures can self-design to model to a self-consistent universe, and then implement it. Its a very interesting question.
I can posit a few possible ontologies in that direction (but of course, I do not have a definitive answer), the easiest being that we, ourselves, are 'products' of a such a universe and can already construct a (very bad) model of a universe in a computer which will (or could) be improved using quantum computers and more advanced information processing methods in the future, until it resembles more and more our present Universe (I personally would make the universe a little smaller and set c to be slightly less).
The resulting system (if we were clever enough) would exist in information (which, in this view, the universe is also in information). I don't view our 'intelligence' as not belonging to the universe, more in the direction of it being another natural object of the universe and related to logic and mathematics.
 
  • #95
p764rds said:
particles made in von Neumann-like machines does make sense (to me at least). It explains a lot of quantum bizarreness easily.

Easily? Can you elaborate? Or post a link to a paper which explains this?
 
  • #96
AUMathTutor said:
However, you want to write a program that's also capable of copying itself; one which can not only provide a representation of itself, but which can do so in such a way that the representation can also represent itself, and so on ad infinitum.

I think that with a little thought you'll agree that it's not possible to do this unless you have a third party come in and act on the whole program without the program's intervention.

It's quite possible. It's called a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quine_(computing).
 
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  • #97
"It's quite possible. It's called a quine. "
Yikes. I guess you're right. Interesting information, thanks for that. Hmm...

I guess a computer program was a bad example. Still, I'm pretty sure that ZFC sets can't contain themselves. One of the fun things about computers is, I guess, they can... well, now that I think about this, it's obvious.

Still, I hope my point stands, even if the example was bad.
 
  • #98
AUMathTutor said:
Still, I'm pretty sure that ZFC sets can't contain themselves.

Correct, this is called an Axiom of Regularity:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axiom_of_regularity

Note that there are version of set theory without this axiom.
 
  • #99
AUMathTutor said:
Also, camboy:
I'm not sure I follow your logic. So if Feynman says that nobody knows the machinery of QM, but Bohm says he knows, how do you know Bohm is right? Your argument seems to rest on the fact that it's not fair to say Bohm is wrong since he can't be proven wrong, but then you go on to say that he's right. I don't think it's fair to draw this conclusion either... in fact, science is such that we'll never know if any of it is right, or just works by some strange coincidence.

The logic is not complicated. Feynman actually says 'nobody knows any machinery', not 'nobody knows the machinery'. The substitution of one little word for another makes a profound difference.

Saying nobody knows any machinery (and this conclusion is backed up by the rest of Feynman's arguments in The Character of Physical Law etc.) implies Feynman thinks that nobody nowhere ever has been able to come up with a plausible 'mechanism' which implies the observed results (usually referring to the double slit experiment). It does not imply anything about whether such a model is actually `what really happens'.

Simply saying that there exists both a particle and a wave (which is what pilot-wave theory does - no extra mathematics, just now we have probability of a particle being at x rather than being found there in a suitable measurement) implies an obvious mechanism for the two-slit experiment. Is this correct? Who knows...?... but it it is clear that someone does know some machinery.

According to Towler's Lecture 7 referred to earlier, Feynman not only knew Bohm well (they used to go chasing girls on Copacabana beach together) but he thought highly of Bohm's work - so it is puzzling to me why he would make such a statement. I don't know the source of Towler's information.
 
  • #100
I think you have a misunderstanding of the semantics of "know" in Feynman's sentence.

There is a difference between "knows" and "thinks of", or "imagines", or "believes". Know means (1) you think it, (2) you believe it, and (3) it's true. So does Bohm "know" a machinery? Let's check.

(1) Clearly, Bohm thought about the theory.
(2) Clearly, Bohm believes it.
(3) Who knows whether it's true or not? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't.

To be fair, you never really "know" anything in science, so Feynman really was misleading with his statement. In a less specific sense of the word "knows", then I guess you're right. But for what Feynman said, I think you'd have to be reading between the lines to misinterpret his statement to read "Nobody thinks they know any machinery".
 
  • #101
To paraphrase Feynman:
Nobody knows what Feynman really meant when he said what he said. :biggrin:
 
  • #102
Demystifier said:
Nobody knows what Feynman really meant when he said what he said. :biggrin:

FALSE ! :)
Feynman knew what he really meant :)
 
  • #103
Dmitry67 said:
FALSE ! :)
Feynman knew what he really meant :)
I was talking about the presence (nobody knows), not about the past (nobody knew). :-p
 

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