Levi Civita - SO(4) Group Theory: Proving Relation in Landau and Lifshitz

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a relation presented in Landau and Lifshitz's "Classical Theory of Fields" concerning the Levi-Civita symbol in the context of the SO(4) group theory. Participants are examining the correctness of the relation and exploring methods to prove it, with some expressing skepticism about the validity of Landau and Lifshitz's formulation.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a calculation involving the Levi-Civita symbol and expresses doubt about the correctness of the relation as stated in Landau and Lifshitz.
  • Another participant suggests using LaTeX for clarity and refers to the Wikipedia page on the Levi-Civita symbol for additional context.
  • A different participant mentions that their brute force calculation resulted in a negative sign discrepancy, prompting a request for a proof of the relation.
  • Concerns are raised about the index placement and the potential for missing signs due to the lowering/raising of indices, depending on the definitions used.
  • Some participants emphasize the importance of not using the Minkowski metric when discussing SO(4), suggesting that this could be a source of confusion in the calculations.
  • There is a mention that Landau and Lifshitz's work utilizes SO(4), which may differ from the approach taken by the original poster.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the correctness of the relation from Landau and Lifshitz, with some supporting the need for a proof while others highlight potential issues with the calculations. No consensus is reached regarding the validity of the relation or the methods to prove it.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of normalization constants in antisymmetrization and the potential impact of different metric conventions on the calculations. There are unresolved questions regarding the definitions and assumptions used in the calculations.

Nusc
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Landau and Lifshitz, second volume - Classical Theory of Fields, page 7

$$e_mu,nu,alpha,beta e^alpha, beta, gamma, sigma = -2 ( delta^gamma_mu * delta^sigma_nu delta delta^sigma_mu * delta^gamma_nu )
$$
If for example I calculate the following:
$$
e^0,1_alpha,beta e^alpha,beta_0,1 = e_0123 e^2301 + e_0132 e^3201
= 1(+1) +(-1)(-1) = +2$$
If we use LL:

$$-2(delta^0_0 delta^1_1 - delta^0_1 delta^1_0) = -2$$
and one can do that for

##e^1,0_alpha,beta e^alpha,beta_0,1## and you get the opposite result
Same with

##e^0,1_alpha,beta e^alpha,beta_1,0## and you get the opposite result

I don't think LL is correct.

I have been told that this relation can be proved using group theory, in particular, methods for SO(4)

I don't think it's true but I wanted to know if anyone here could do it since I don't know group theory.
 
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I strongly suggest you use Latex for your formulas and give a little context and conventions.

Did you try the wikipedia page on epsilon symbols,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levi-Civita_symbol

at "Four dimensions".? Also, be aware of the normalisation constants in antisymmetrization. E.g., a lot of authors define ##T_{[ab]} \equiv \frac{1}{2!} \Bigl(T_{ab} - T_{ba} \Bigr)##.
 
I calculated that relation by brute force and I am off by a negative sign. That's why I want the proof.$$e_{\mu,\nu,\alpha,\beta} e^{\alpha, \beta, \gamma, \sigma} = -2 ( \delta^{\gamma}_{\mu} * \delta^{\sigma}_{\nu} -\delta^\sigma_\mu * \delta^\gamma_\nu )
$$

$$
e_{0,1,\alpha,\beta} e^{\alpha,\beta,0,1} = e_{0123} e^{2301} + e_{0132} e^{3201}

= 1(+1) +(-1)(-1) = +2
$$If we use LL:
$$-2(\delta^0_0 \delta^1_1 - \delta^0_1 \delta^1_0) = -2$$

<mentor edit>
 
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Your index placement is impossible to understand without proper LaTeX. Anyway, you seem to be missing a sign from lowering/raising some indices in your brute force computation (depending on what exactly your definitions are).
 
I tried a latex edit, poor results, I'm asking for some more help from others.
 
How did you raise the indices on the epsilon symbol? You shouldn't use the Minkowski metric, as we're talking SO(4) here.
 
haushofer said:
How did you raise the indices on the epsilon symbol? You shouldn't use the Minkowski metric, as we're talking SO(4) here.
I think the exact problem is that he did not use the Minkowski metric, while Landau-LIfshitz probably do.
 
Ah, yes, I read that LL used SO(4), but it was TS his own comment. That could be a reason, indeed.
 

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