Linear Algebra Preliminaries in Finite Reflection Groups

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around understanding linear algebra concepts as presented in Grove and Benson's "Finite Reflection Groups." Participants are examining the properties of inner products in relation to orthogonal subspaces and the implications of certain vector relationships within a defined basis.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Peter seeks clarification on why < x_i, y_i > must be non-zero if y_i is a non-zero vector in {V_i}^{\perp}.
  • Another participant asserts that if < y, x_j > = 0 for all j, then y must be zero, providing a proof based on inner products.
  • Peter questions the definition of y_i and whether it implies y_i is in V^{\perp}.
  • Peter attempts to validate his understanding of the argument from Grove and Benson, specifically regarding the implications of inner products being zero.
  • There is a discussion about the necessity of the basis being orthonormal for certain expansions to hold, which Peter identifies as a potential limitation in his reasoning.
  • Peter suggests that Grove and Benson may have made a typo regarding the relationship of y_i to {V}^{\perp} versus {V_i}^{\perp}.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing levels of understanding regarding the implications of inner products and the definitions of orthogonal spaces. There is no consensus on whether Grove and Benson's text contains an error, and the discussion remains unresolved on several technical points.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that certain expansions require the basis to be orthonormal, which may not be explicitly stated in the original text. This introduces uncertainty regarding the validity of some arguments presented.

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Linear Algebra Preliminaries in "Finite Reflection Groups

In the Preliminaries to Grove and Benson "Finite Reflection Groups' On page 1 (see attachment) we find the following:

"If \{ x_1 , x_2, ... x_n \} is a basis for V, let V_i be the subspace spanned by \{ x_1, ... , x_{i-1} , x_{i+1}, ... x_n \}, excluding x_i.

If 0 \ne y_i \in {V_i}^{\perp}, then &lt; x_j , y_i &gt; \ = 0 for all j \ne i, but &lt; x_i , y_i &gt; \ne 0 , for otherwise y_i \in V^{\perp} = 0"

I do not completely follow the argument as to why &lt; x_i , y_i &gt; \ \ne 0 despite Grove and Bensons attempt to explain it. Can someone please (very explicitly) show why this is true?

Why would y_i \in V^{\perp} necessarily be equal to 0 if &lt; x_i , y_i &gt; \ = \ 0?

Another issue I have is the folowing:

y_i is defined as a non-zero vector belonging to {V_i}^{\perp}.

How do we know that y_i \in V^{\perp} ?

Peter
 

Attachments

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If x_1,...,x_n is a basis of V, and \left&lt; y, x_j \right&gt; = 0 for all j, then y=0 necessarily.

Proof: Suppose that y = a_1 x_1 +... + a_n x_n for some numbers a1,...,an. Then if y is non-zero, \left&lt; y, y \right&gt; \neq 0. But
\left&lt; y, y \right&gt; = \left&lt; y, \sum a_j x_j \right&gt; = \sum a_j \left&lt; y, x_j \right&gt; = 0 since every inner product in that summation is zero. So y must have been zero to begin with

I'm not where your confusion is with yi being in the orthogonal space. They haven't defined yi to be anything in particular, they're just saying, suppose they happened to pick such a vectorIt may help to do an example. Let's do it in 2 dimensions: x1 = (1,0) and x2 = (1,1). Then y1 is perpendicular to everything EXCEPT for x1. In particular, y1 is perpendicular to x2 which means y1 must be of the form (a,-a) for some number a. Then <x1,y1> = a = 1 implies that a=1. So y1 = (1,-1).

<y2,x1> = 0 implies that y2 is of the form (0,c) for some number c. <y2,x2> = c, so for the inner product to be 1 it must be c=1, So y2 = (0,1)
 
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Thanks!

Will just work through that now!

Appreciate your help!

Peter
 


I think, that (with the help received in the last post) I have understood the folowing argument in Grove & Benson. Can someone please check my argument.

Basically, to repeat the text I am trying to underrstand:

In the Preliminaries to Grove and Benson "Finite Reflection Groups" On page 1 (see attachment) we find the following:

"If \{ x_1 , x_2, ... x_n \} is a basis for V, let V_i be the subspace spanned by \{ x_1, ... , x_{i-1} , x_{i+1}, ... x_n \}, excluding x_i.

If 0 \ne y_i \in {V_i}^{\perp}, then &lt; x_j , y_i &gt; \ = 0 for all j \ne i, but &lt; x_i , y_i &gt; \ne 0 , for otherwise y_i \in V^{\perp} = 0"


======================================================

Thus given "\{ x_1 , x_2, ... x_n \} is a basis for V, let V_i be the subspace spanned by \{ x_1, ... , x_{i-1} , x_{i+1}, ... x_n \}, excluding x_i" I am trying to show that:

"If 0 \ne y_i \in {V_i}^{\perp}, then &lt; x_j , y_i &gt; \ = 0 for all j \ne i, but &lt; x_i , y_i &gt; \ne 0 , for otherwise y_i \in V^{\perp} = 0"

=======================================================

First show the following:

If &lt; x_j , y_i &gt; = 0 for all j then y_i must equal zero ... (1)

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Proof of (1) [following post by Office_Shredder]

y_i must belong to V [since it belongs to a subspace {V_i}^{\perp} of V]

Thus we can express y_i as follows:

y_i = a_1 , x_1 + a_2 , x_2 + ... + a_n , x_n

= &lt; y_i , x_1 &gt; x_1 + &lt; y_i , x_2 &gt; x_2 + ... + &lt; y_i , x_n &gt; x_n ... (2)

= &lt; x_1, y_i &gt; x_1 + &lt; x_2, y_i &gt; x_2 + ... + &lt; x_n , y_i &gt; x_n ... (3)

If every inner product in (2) or (3) is zero then clearly y_i = 0

{Problem! Expansion (2) or (3) requires \{ x_1, x_2, ... , x_n \} to be orthonormal! But of course it could be made orthonormal!}

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But we know (1) does not hold because we have assumed y_i \ne \ 0

But we also know that &lt; x_j , y_i &gt; = 0 for all j \ne i since the x_j with j \ne i belong to V_i which is orthogonal to {V_i}^{\perp}.

Thus &lt; x_i , y_i &gt; \ne \ 0, for otherwise y_i \in {V_i}^{\perp} = \ 0Is this reasoning correct?
I would appreciate it very much if someone can confirm the correctness of my reasoning.[Problem: Grove and Benson actually conclude the above argument by saying the following: (see attachement)

But &lt; x_i , y_i &gt; \ne \ 0, for otherwise y_i \in {V}^{\perp} = \ 0 but I think this is a typo as they mean y_i \in {V_i}^{\perp} = \ 0?? Am I correct? ]

Hope someone can help.

Peter
 
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Thanks

Peter
 

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