The discussion centers around the loss of quantum information and its implications for quantum determinism, exploring various scenarios beyond black holes where information might be lost. Participants examine theoretical and experimental contexts, as well as philosophical implications related to quantum mechanics.
Participants express multiple competing views on the mechanisms of information loss and its implications for quantum determinism. There is no consensus on the specific scenarios or interpretations discussed.
Some claims rely on specific interpretations of quantum mechanics and may depend on definitions of terms like "quantum information." The discussion includes references to both theoretical concepts and practical implications, with varying degrees of acceptance among participants.
"Thank you, A Neumaier, for your reply!"A. Neumaier said:Most typically, information is lost by absorption into unobservably fast oscillations.
Are you suggesting that information lost by black holes is a special case of this?A. Neumaier said:Most typically, information is lost by absorption into unobservably fast oscillations.
No; the question was about other situations apart from black holes. I was thinking about typical situations in the lab. In the case of black holes, information is lost by absorption into unobservably tiny regions near spatial singularities.Demystifier said:Are you suggesting that information lost by black holes is a special case of this?
I was talking about standard quantum mechanics, not extensions like De Broglie's theory. But if one believes the standard talk about Bohmian mechanics, they claim that observable is precisely the same as with the standard theory. if so, my observation also holds for this extension.PhilDSP said:Would those unobservably fast oscillations include the phase of "matter waves" from De Broglie's theory (which become extremely rapid as a particle's velocity approaches rest)? Granted they aren't physical waves as we know them.
Hi, guys! Hawking said that if spacetime can be warped, tied into a knot, or folded, then certainly information can get caught in those folds, and lost. Would this be an example of jeopardizing quantum determinism, other than through black holes!A. Neumaier said:No; the question was about other situations apart from black holes. I was thinking about typical situations in the lab. In the case of black holes, information is lost by absorption into unobservably tiny regions near spatial singularities.
haael said:In accelerated frames information can be lost in Rindler horizon.
haael said:If the Universe is expanding or even stationary and open, then information can be lost in the sky, by simply radiating it away.
Simple man said:Hawking said that if spacetime can be warped, tied into a knot, or folded, then certainly information can get caught in those folds, and lost.
what is meant by “quantum information” ?Simple man said:Summary: Natural ways Quantum information can be lost.
Other than with black holes, are there any other natural ways that quantum information can be lost, and thus jeopardize quantum determinism?
Hello, Mr. Donis.PeterDonis said:Please give a reference.
Simple man said:I read about Hawking statement in a copy of THE ELEGANT UNIVERSE
Simple man said:I'm too old for school, so I don't have access to college literature or textbooks.
Fair enough, and I agree! Thanks for your answer! By the way, are there any recently published books out there on black holes, that aren't overwhelmingly technical, but still scientificly reliable? Material that I could comprehend, and learn from? Maybe one volume that covers the most aspects of black holes, white holes, singularities, the cosmic censorship conjecture, etc?PeterDonis said:Then we're not going to be able to discuss it. PF discussions need to be based on valid sources. You will find lots of things in pop science books, even things said or written by scientists, that are at best misleading, at worst just plain wrong. Scientists can get away with that in pop science books because no other experts are required to check their work. That's why PF prefers textbooks and peer-reviewed papers, where there are other experts checking the work.
Sure you do. There are lots of good textbooks and other equivalents, such as lecture notes, online. MIT and some other universities have their entire curriculum online. And you can find tons of peer-reviewed papers on arxiv.org.
Simple man said:are there any recently published books out there on black holes, that aren't overwhelmingly technical, but still scientificly reliable?
"Thank you very much, Mr. Donis!"PeterDonis said:I don't know what you would consider recent, but Kip Thorne's Black Holes and Time Warps, published in 1993, is still an excellent layman's presentation of the subject.
"Thanks!"PeterDonis said:Also, Sean Carroll's online lecture notes on GR are a good resource for learning the basics of GR:
https://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9712019
Chapter 7 discusses black holes, but it's worth working through the earlier chapters to get a good background.
microsansfil said:what is meant by “quantum information” ?
“quantum information” encompassing subjects as diverse as quantum computation, quantum algorithms, quantum complexity theory, quantum communication complexity, entanglement theory, quantum key distribution, quantum error correction, and even the experimental implementation of quantum protocols.
/Patrick
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Simple man said:"Thank you very much, Mr. Donis!"Hello, again, Mr. Donis!Simple man said:"Thank you very much, Mr. Donis!"
Have you heard of the book, BEYOND BIOCENTRISM, by Robert Lanza? It's his theory that consciousness and biology create the universe and reality, and not the other way around. Isn't this the plain old Copenhagen Interpretation of QM? Anyway, have you seen the book, or heard any scientific critiques about it? I was considering buying a copy.
PeterDonis said:@Simple man your last couple of posts are rather garbled.
Simple man said:have you heard about the book, BOYOND BIOCENTRISM
Hello, microsansfil!microsansfil said:what is meant by “quantum information” ?
“quantum information” encompassing subjects as diverse as quantum computation, quantum algorithms, quantum complexity theory, quantum communication complexity, entanglement theory, quantum key distribution, quantum error correction, and even the experimental implementation of quantum protocols.
/Patrick
I purchased a copy yesterday, at a Barnes & Noble, west of Pittsburgh! Thanks for the recommendation!Simple man said:"Thank you very much, Mr. Donis!"
Thanks for your recommendation! I purchased a copy yesterday, at a Barnes & Noble, west of Pittsburgh!PeterDonis said:I don't know what you would consider recent, but Kip Thorne's Black Holes and Time Warps, published in 1993, is still an excellent layman's presentation of the subject.