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Lubrication in toroidal engines

  1. Aug 11, 2009 #1
    how do toroidal engines get lubricated?
     
  2. jcsd
  3. Aug 11, 2009 #2

    Danger

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    Welcome to PF, Chhitiz.
    I've never heard the term 'toroidal engine'. Are you perhaps referring to a rotary, such as Mazda uses?
     
  4. Aug 12, 2009 #3

    RonL

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    This might be a place to start,



    http://www.roundengine.com/
     
  5. Aug 12, 2009 #4

    Danger

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    That's quite an intriguing device. Thanks for the link, Ron.
    I'm having a bit of trouble understanding the operation of it, and don't have time to delve too deeply into it right now, but I'll continue to check it out later.
     
  6. Aug 12, 2009 #5

    S_Happens

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    Maybe it gets lubricated exactly like it runs. By hopes, dreams, and expected results (ok, maybe compressed air in a few cases). Maybe I've missed out, but I haven't seen anything about any toroidal engine actually doing any combustion. Like I said, I may have just missed it, but if you have any information dealing with functional setups, please post it.

    Sorry to detract from your post, it is just annoying to see another toroidal engine that (seemingly) has nothing but expectations and a CAD drawing.
     
  7. Aug 13, 2009 #6

    RonL

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    If you look in, design, and then, research, you can see a prototype and there are six tabs to click on that gives a brief explanation of the basic operation.
    Lubrication would seem to be akin to a two cycle type, but that is just my guess.

    The flat plate compression disc, looks to be a weak point for high compression applications, but as I stated to Danger, this is a place to start becoming aware of toroidal type design.

    A design in my mind involves free piston technology, where compression takes place between the pistons rotating inside a large flywheel, inertial energy of the pistons is transfered into motion of the massive flywheel. To try and describe it would result in more infraction points I'm afraid.:frown:
     
  8. Aug 13, 2009 #7

    Danger

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    You mean a pre-mix? That would make sense. What I wonder about most is how the timing disk is sealed.
     
  9. Aug 13, 2009 #8

    RonL

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    Good point, and it seems that as pressure builds against the timing disk, wear on the backside would be high.
    Also lubrication and sealing around all the ports looks to be a chore.
    I see that large main disk and alternator designs flash into my head.:smile:

    Overall I think it looks good, I'll search a little and see if I can find anything new.



    P.S. Danger, they are in Canada, Isn't that your neck of the woods ?
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2009
  10. Aug 13, 2009 #9

    Danger

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    Bloody hell! I never saw that part of the link until I just went back after that comment. They're within spitting distance of me. Maybe I should just drop in one of these days and ask to see a working model in operation. That could clear up a lot of questions. I'm going to be very busy for the next wee while, though. Tomorrow is W's 59th birthday, and the last one that I'll be able to celebrate with her now that she's moving up north at the end of the month. Also, I'm having extreme renovations done to my house, and there are a few other things on my plate. If they'll let me in, though, when I have the opportunity, I'll check it out. Thank you for pointing that out.
     
  11. Aug 14, 2009 #10
    you mean like free pistons inside the flywheel and not outside?
    and please i still don't get how that thing is getting lubricated.
     
  12. Aug 14, 2009 #11
    you mean like free pistons inside the flywheel and not outside?
    and please i still don't get how that thing is getting lubricated.
     
  13. Aug 14, 2009 #12

    RonL

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    I'm not sure what you need for an answer on lubrication, but there are many possible options, any of which will depend on how the design moves and what parts interact, and what speed, pressures and temperatures are involved.

    Oil mixed with liquid fuel, or misting in vapor fuel, would be my guess for most designs.

    Yes to the question about the pistons inside the flywheel.
     
  14. Aug 14, 2009 #13
    how does the cylinder wall get surfaced with lubricants? and how does the lubricant get in and out of the system? it's closed,right, not like a reciprocating engine, which is open at one end.
     
  15. Aug 14, 2009 #14

    Danger

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    It isn't closed any more than a reciprocating engine, Chhitiz. Those circles on the bottom surface are intake and exhaust holes that appear to be covered and uncovered by the pistons which act as valves.
    What Ron is talking about regarding lubrication is something along the line of either a 2-stroke gas engine in which oil is mixed with the gas in the tank, or a pneumatic tool such as an impact wrench which has oil injected into the airflow.
     
  16. Aug 14, 2009 #15

    minger

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    Just seen this thread and told me coworker about it. Nearly simultaneously we both said, "How do they seal the disk?" That seems to be weak point, in an otherwise cool looking design.

    Unfortunately I'm not sure I see any benefit in using it, nor do they show a working prototype. Either way, I'd be interested in seeing it actually run.
     
  17. Aug 14, 2009 #16
    then how does the oil get out? with the exhaust? is it as effective as in a reciprocating engine?
     
  18. Aug 14, 2009 #17

    Danger

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    I can't speak to the efficiency; there are too many variables. The oil is indeed expelled with the exhaust if it is introduced in the possible ways that Ron mentioned. Think of how a chainsaw or a small dirtbike operates. The exhaust is blue because the oil is burned with the fuel, after having done its lubrication duty.
     
  19. Aug 14, 2009 #18

    RonL

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    Some of the silicone based lubricants can fill the micro voids of the metal surfaces and reside in these pores for a long time, some metals can be impregnated with graphite or other compounds and require almost no lubrication, all is based on design.

    Go back in time and you find that some machines and engines had live people that mopped on, or squirted oil on moving parts, based on a time cycle. One of my dad's first jobs was an oiler on a large dragline in the 1930's.

    If I had a solid reason to build a toroidal engine any time soon, I would likely get hung up on which of the many possible ways to lubricate it. Now to get creative why not consider using air to keep the metals or whatever from making contact. (a little hint, think of the air hockey tables, with a little more pressure.) Getting air to free pistons gets a little trickey.

    I think the surface of mechanical engineering has only been scratched a little.
     
  20. Aug 15, 2009 #19
    you said you had a design in mind. why aren't you building one?
     
  21. Aug 15, 2009 #20

    Danger

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    Hi is, but he doesn't want to release any details until he's assured of world domination.
     
  22. Aug 16, 2009 #21

    RonL

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    If I were King.......?:rolleyes::rofl: Thanks Danger, one more thought to add to my list.:smile:

    chhitiz, that is a fair question, the list of answers is a very long one, I'll give a few.

    1. I'm at the age when, the afternoon nap is the most important event of the day.:approve:
    2. I have so many other things to do, that are mandatory in my day to day life.
    3. The design can have so many options, the end results is not clear.:confused:

    4. The major reason, in spite of all that I know and don't know, a project like this will require a very serious amount of......Time, Money, and Professional Engineering Talent.

    Learning when NOT to do something is a quality I wish I had learned long ago, I would have more cash and a lot less unfinished projects laying a round.

    Ron
     
  23. Aug 16, 2009 #22
    really, how old are you? i'm 21, screwing my life in 3rdyear B.E. compscience. i too have design of a toroidal engine in my mind, although i was stuck at lubrication as well. oil mixed with fuel seemed the only way in and out, though it seemed too far fetched. hence the thread. your idea of 'air hockey' doesn't seem very feasible. nor does it look like the right time or place for me to attempt any such venture.
     
  24. Aug 16, 2009 #23

    RonL

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    I'm approaching 67, my two older grandchildren are 26, and 25, then five more 16 and younger.

    In my later years, the penalty of not going beyond high school is really taking a toll on things I would like to do. Since being a part of PF the lesson that seems most clear to me, is how important it is to say things in a way that others can understand, based on what they have been taught and trained by the books.

    The air hockey is a good example, the principle thought was how little air pressure it takes to make an almost frictionless movement between the surface and puck.
    Separating a set of pistons from the toroidal wall might work by the forcing of an air layer between them.
    How to have an action/reaction between the pistons which are all revolving in a full 360 degree circle, is a most challenging thought process. Transforming what is clear in the mind, into a set of plans with all calculations worked out, goes beyond my abilities.

    I'm glad you gave a little information about yourself and would encourage you to put a little in your profile section, it is helpful when someone answers questions and makes comments. It at least helps me feel a bit closer to people even when a world apart.

    Thanks,

    Ron
     
  25. Aug 17, 2009 #24

    Danger

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    Cool! Suddenly, I don't feel quite so ancient. :biggrin:
    I'm having a bit of trouble with the air-hockey concept as well, though. Wouldn't the air injection have to be powerful enough to overcome the compression within the chamber? Perhaps magnetic repulsion, as in a cyclotron, would be more appropriate. Either way, though, it seems that the energy input to perform the piston confinement would seriously diminish, if not eliminate, that derived from the operation of the engine. I might be missing something here.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2009
  26. Aug 18, 2009 #25
    ok i will do that. and yes i completely agree with danger on the air hockey idea.
     
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