Mandelbrot Set- definitive point testing

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the determination of whether a complex number is part of the Mandelbrot Set, focusing on the mathematical properties and computational challenges associated with this set. Participants explore the theoretical aspects of convergence and divergence of sequences defined by the iterative function z --> z^2 + c.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how to conclusively determine membership in the Mandelbrot Set without relying on approximations.
  • Another participant suggests that if a complex number c is not in the Mandelbrot Set, the sequence z_n will eventually diverge, and this can be proven by evaluating the sequence until z becomes large.
  • It is proposed that for certain values of c, the sequence z_n will eventually be periodic, indicating that c is in the Mandelbrot Set, and these values can be computed as solutions of polynomials.
  • Concerns are raised about the existence of a general algorithm to determine membership in the Mandelbrot Set for arbitrary points, with skepticism expressed regarding the computability of the set.
  • One participant references the Blum-Shub-Smale model, noting that the Mandelbrot Set is not computable, while its complement is computably enumerable, and mentions a conjecture related to its computability in certain models.
  • There is a clarification that simply evaluating the sequence until c becomes large does not suffice to prove convergence or divergence, as c can be large while still converging finitely.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the computability of the Mandelbrot Set and the methods for determining membership, indicating that multiple competing perspectives remain without consensus.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of convergence and divergence, as well as unresolved mathematical steps related to the computability of the Mandelbrot Set.

Savant13
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For those of you not familiar with the mandelbrot set, it is the set of all complex numbers c for which the following transform remains finite for an infinite number of iterations:

z --> z^2 + c

z is 0 for the first iteration

My question is this: How can I conclusively determine whether a number is part of the Mandelbrot Set? I am not looking for an approximation, I can do that on my own.
 
Last edited:
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Should I have posted this somewhere else?
 
maybe no-one knows the answer?

I've never studied the Mandlebrot set, but can say the following

- if c is not in the Mandlebrot set then the sequence z_n will eventually diverge, and you can prove this with certainty just by evaluating the sequence accurately enough until z becomes large.

- for certain values of c the sequence z_n will be eventually be periodic and c will be in the Mandlebrot set, and you could compute these values as solutions of polynomials.

- for more general points in the Mandlebrot set I doubt that there is such an algorithm.

edit: Wikipedia seems to back up what I just said

In the Blum-Shub-Smale model of real computation, the Mandelbrot set is not computable, but its complement is computably enumerable. However, many simple objects (e.g., the graph of exponentiation) are also not computable in the BSS model. At present it is unknown whether the Mandelbrot set is computable in models of real computation based on computable analysis, which correspond more closely to the intuitive notion of "plotting the set by a computer." Hertling has shown that the Mandelbrot set is computable in this model if the hyperbolicity conjecture is true.
 
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gel said:
maybe no-one knows the answer?

I've never studied the Mandlebrot set, but can say the following

- if c is not in the Mandlebrot set then the sequence z_n will eventually diverge, and you can prove this with certainty just by evaluating the sequence accurately enough until z becomes large.

- for certain values of c the sequence z_n will be eventually be periodic and c will be in the Mandlebrot set, and you could compute these values as solutions of polynomials.

- for more general points in the Mandlebrot set I doubt that there is such an algorithm.

edit: Wikipedia seems to back up what I just said

Evalutating until c becomes large doesn't work except as an approximation. c can get very large as long as it converges finitely eventually. You also cannot prove that c does not converge to a finite number or range through such evaluation.
 
Savant13 said:
c can get very large as long as it converges finitely eventually.
If c is sufficiently large, iterating must diverge to infinity.
If z becomes sufficiently large, iterating must diverge to infinity.
 

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