Engineering Many rejections - Not knowing why

[bob012345]

I would adapt more quickly in telecomm companies with minimal training than with semiconductor companies that require hardware design. I would say that for many positions in giant telecomm companies, I would start almost immediately if given the chance. Nevertheless, I didn't get any positive responses from them, and I received feedbacks saying I don't have direct experience in what they need, like that I don't have enough experience in C++, or that I didn't work directly with X technology, although a week reading would be enough to grasp it for me. That's why I said why would semiconductor companies train me. It goes against my experience in that companies have no interest in training new employees, not because I am applying only to positions where I can hit the ground running.

Perhaps we have different ideas about what training means...I don't mean sending you to school to learn chemistry if you are an electrical engineer. I mean you do need to have relevant expertise.

However, it could be that since you did a postdoc they do not see you as a fresh out of school student they want hire and train but as an experienced worker with none of the right experience. Perhaps you should try joining a research group in academia. Only this time you interview them try to get in one that is doing interesting and practical work. Latch onto some professor with deep ties to industry. Then jumping from there to industry might be easier.

 

[ProbablyNotMe]

@ProbablyNotMe , you stated that you are currently based in Canada. If you don't mind my asking, what province are you currently living in?

I ask this because the job market can differ substantially depending on the province you live, or the particular city or town within the province you live in.

For example, the job market in or near Toronto, Ontario is very different from the job market in say, Winnipeg, Manitoba or Montreal, Quebec.

All I can say is that I have been applying all over Canada, and if I am asked if I am willing to relocate in an application I always answer 'Yes'. I am not limiting myself to where I live.

 

[ProbablyNotMe]

Perhaps we have different ideas about what training means...I don't mean sending you to school to learn chemistry if you are an electrical engineer. I mean you do need to have relevant expertise.

However, it could be that since you did a postdoc they do not see you as a fresh out of school student they want hire and train but as an experienced worker with none of the right experience. Perhaps you should try joining a research group in academia. Only this time you interview them try to get in one that is doing interesting and practical work. Latch onto some professor with deep ties to industry. Then jumping from there to industry might be easier.

Electrical Engineering has numerous specialties. I took a couple of courses in electronics in my undergraduate studies, and that's it. That's why I don't think I would be trained in a semiconductor company: I don't have enough background to be trained.

I have been trying with my PhD and postdoctoral supervisors, but both seem to know little in the industry (they don't prefer to work with the industry in their research). I am trying to secure another postdoc position now, to refresh my skills and update my knowledge, but so far had no luck. I am afraid, even for a postdoc, my CV doesn't look good with 3 years of employment gaps, and 4 years not working in my field, not to mention finishing my PhD more than 5 years ago! I am realizing now that I made the mistake of focusing my applications within Canada. I have better chances elsewhere (US and UE) in normal situations.

 

[bob012345]

Ok, I'm pulling out the big guns...:)

Since you appear to fall through all the cracks there is nothing else to do but figure out what critical problem you are most passionate about and create some kind of solution in the form of a business model. In other words start a company and change the world. Create your own reality. You may be doomed to be a billionaire.

I'm not being flippant. That may be your calling since you don't appear to 'fit' in the system.

 

[StatGuy2000]

All I can say is that I have been applying all over Canada, and if I am asked if I am willing to relocate in an application I always answer 'Yes'. I am not limiting myself to where I live.

Fair enough. But keep in mind that employers in Canada tend to prefer to hire "locally". In other words, job candidates geographically closest to them will necessarily be among the "top tier" candidates.

So in other words, if there are many jobs in a given area (e.g. Toronto, Kitchener-Waterloo, etc.), it pays to already be living there or within driving distance to those locations.

Also, you never did explicitly state this, but without getting too specific -- what is your ethnic background? As I've pointed out before, here in Canada, immigrants from the Middle East/North Africa and African countries have the greatest difficulties in securing employment.

 

[StatGuy2000]

Electrical Engineering has numerous specialties. I took a couple of courses in electronics in my undergraduate studies, and that's it. That's why I don't think I would be trained in a semiconductor company: I don't have enough background to be trained.

I have been trying with my PhD and postdoctoral supervisors, but both seem to know little in the industry (they don't prefer to work with the industry in their research). I am trying to secure another postdoc position now, to refresh my skills and update my knowledge, but so far had no luck. I am afraid, even for a postdoc, my CV doesn't look good with 3 years of employment gaps, and 4 years not working in my field, not to mention finishing my PhD more than 5 years ago! I am realizing now that I made the mistake of focusing my applications within Canada. I have better chances elsewhere (US and UE) in normal situations.

Getting another postdoc at this stage is frankly a waste of time, as these focus on academic positions which are few and far between (within Canada and elsewhere in the world). If your goal is to seek a private sector job, you need skills that the private sector needs. And depending on your specialty in electrical engineering, those opportunities may or may not be readily available.

As I've asked before, where in Canada do you live? And what kinds of jobs (STEM or technical) are most abundant in your city/town that you live? My suggestion would be to do the following:

1 (a) Take a "survival job" i.e. jobs that don't require your education. That could be anything -- Uber or Lyft driver, construction worker, bartender, retail, etc. Anything that will pay for food, rent/housing costs, and the bills.

or

1 (b) Apply for welfare (e.g. Ontario Works) so that you have something to survive.

2. While you are pursuing your "survival job" or being on welfare, look at what education or training is required for the technical or STEM job that is most available, and then pursue that.

3. Apply to those technical positions.

4. Network, network, network!

5. Repeat steps 2-5.

 

[Vanadium 50]

jobs in a given area (e.g. Toronto, Kitchener-Waterloo, etc.)

Is Berlin er...Kitchener not considered within driving distance of Toronto? I'd guess it's 90 minutes between University of Toronto and Perimeter, which is not so nice, but Kitchener to the western suburbs of Toronto seems more reasonable. Somewhere like Hamilton looks to be equally (in)convenient to both. I've certainly passed it enough!

 

[ProbablyNotMe]

Getting another postdoc at this stage is frankly a waste of time, as these focus on academic positions which are few and far between (within Canada and elsewhere in the world). If your goal is to seek a private sector job, you need skills that the private sector needs. And depending on your specialty in electrical engineering, those opportunities may or may not be readily available.

As I've asked before, where in Canada do you live? And what kinds of jobs (STEM or technical) are most abundant in your city/town that you live? My suggestion would be to do the following:

1 (a) Take a "survival job" i.e. jobs that don't require your education. That could be anything -- Uber or Lyft driver, construction worker, bartender, retail, etc. Anything that will pay for food, rent/housing costs, and the bills.

or

1 (b) Apply for welfare (e.g. Ontario Works) so that you have something to survive.

2. While you are pursuing your "survival job" or being on welfare, look at what education or training is required for the technical or STEM job that is most available, and then pursue that.

3. Apply to those technical positions.

4. Network, network, network!

5. Repeat steps 2-5.

While I was working my last job, which I would say it was a "survival job", I was taking online courses on software development. After 8-hour shifts working on something else that need mental effort is challenging. I was waking up 3 am in the morning so I can work with focus before I start my job, since my job needed little mental effort. Towards the end of my job, which I didn't know the contract wouldn't be extended except in the last 10 days of my contract, I started to do personal projects using what I learned. I built 3 relatively large projects, and put the source codes on GitHub. I have been applying for jobs in software development in my city and in Canada as a whole for the last 9 months, with no luck. I received a couple of phone interviews, but no one expressed interest beyond that. What I am trying to say, taking a survival job, while learning a new thing is challenging, and will again take time and effort, and I would probably end in the same situation applying for months with no responses. I am discouraged to repeat the same experience.

 

[ProbablyNotMe]

I have a question: I am sending emails to my PhD supervisor explaining my situation to get some guidance and help from him, but he stopped responding, after he kept telling me just keep applying and don't give up. My knowledge in my field is now is outdated after 3 years of not working in the field. Is this a normal behavior from PhD supervisors not giving even suggestions to their previous PhD students? Obviously I cannot force him to help me or even to respond, but I believe he could help me. He has previous PhD and master students in the industry. He didn't help at all during my PhD thesis, and also after I finished to get my first job. Now I am worried he won't give me good recommendation because he stopped responding, and he is one of two references I have in my field!

 

[Vanadium 50]

Some questions to ask:

1. How much time do you think your advisor should devote, per month, to all of his former students?
2. What is your fair share of this?
3. How much time do you think you are asking of him?
4. In the last three months, you've gotten a lot of advice here, but haven't seemed to have acted on it. Is it possible your professor has made the same observation?
5. Does your professor have any reason to consider you a Help Vampire?

 

[ProbablyNotMe]

Some questions to ask:

1. How much time do you think your advisor should devote, per month, to all of his former students?
2. What is your fair share of this?
3. How much time do you think you are asking of him?
4. In the last three months, you've gotten a lot of advice here, but haven't seemed to have acted on it. Is it possible your professor has made the same observation?
5. Does your professor have any reason to consider you a Help Vampire?

What do you mean by "haven't seemed to have acted on it"? I did almost everything I was told to do. I reached out to the people I know. I have kept applying and have started applying outside Canada. I am still taking courses for professional development. I am reading in the literature. I am trying to connect with other professionals on LinkedIn for job leads they post, share or like. What else I didn't do?

I understand my PhD supervisor is busy, but I am not a stranger who is asking for help or guidance. And my supervisor told me only this: keep applying and don't give up, which I kept doing. He didn't tell me something I didn't do to make the conclusion I am not doing what he is asking me to do.

 

[Vanadium 50]

So far as I can tell, you are asking the exact same questions as in April. Let's look upthread at Choppy's advice in message #12, which you dismissed in #13 saying you did this years ago, and besides, you don't want us to diagnose your problem. That doesn't seem like taking advice to me.

But you should answer the questions I posed. If you don't want to post the answers here, that's your choice, of course, but you should think about them.

 

[bob012345]

I must be doing something wrong, but I don't know what it is, and there is no one to point that out to me in an honest feedback. And thus this thread.

I once had a boss who gave me a bad review but would not tell me what the problem was only that I had to figure that out on my own. Your supervisor should be more supportive unless your are calling every day or something. PhD supervisor/student should be a lifelong relationship.

 

[ProbablyNotMe]

I once had a boss who gave me a bad review but would not tell me what the problem was only that I had to figure that out on my own. Your supervisor should be more supportive unless your are calling every day or something. PhD supervisor/student should be a lifelong relationship.

In the last 6 years, I contacted my PhD supervisor 4-6 times, the last of which was 2 weeks ago, and I only asked him a favor to forward me any postdoc or research positions he might be receiving from his colleagues via email, which he said he would do in the correspondence between him and me before that, which was few months ago. I totally understand he is busy, and he gives priority to his current students, but I don't understand ignoring me.

How can I know if someone is giving me a bad review? Is it typical for companies to unofficially or officially do a background check on me with previous employers/supervisors before they extend an offer?

 

[bob012345]

In the last 6 years, I contacted him 4-6 times, the last of which was 2 weeks ago. I totally understand he is busy, and he gives priority to his current students, but I don't understand ignoring me.

How can I know if someone is giving me a bad review? Is it typical for companies to unofficially or officially do a background check on me with previous employers/supervisors before they extend an offer?

The review I referred to was in person, the annual employee review. We all have issues but when the managers need bodies they tell you how wonderful you are. When their bosses make them to make cuts, all your faults come to the surface. Most managers are not jerks but sometimes they are forced to be.

 

[berkeman]

Is it typical for companies to unofficially or officially do a background check on me with previous employers/supervisors before they extend an offer?

Yes, we check all references that a prospective employee gives us. It's common in industry (at least my industry) for prospective employers to ask for a couple references that they can call.

 

[ProbablyNotMe]

Yes, we check all references that a prospective employee gives us. It's common in industry (at least my industry) for prospective employers to ask for a couple references that they can call.

Where in the process does this happen? After the phone screening and before deciding to move forward to the technical interview, or after the technical interview but before extending an offer? I don't put any references in my resume. I only put I will provide them upon request, but I am not sure if HR reaches out to previous employers through unofficial channels or something to ask about me. I didn't do anything wrong to be worried, but what's happening makes me think it might be the case someone has a different take on me, without ever having shown it to me.

 

[berkeman]

I think it would be after your 2nd round of interviews with us. First round is with HR via phone/Zoom/Teams, and 2nd round is in-person with technical 1:1 interviews.

 

[ProbablyNotMe]

... As I've pointed out before, here in Canada, immigrants from the Middle East/North Africa and African countries have the greatest difficulties in securing employment.

Can I ask why these immigrant groups face the greatest difficulties from all other non-European immigrant groups? I try not to focus on this, and put all the blame on being a non-European white immigrant, because I cannot do anything about it, but I am interested in knowing how this may have affected me in Canada.

 

[CrysPhys]

PhD supervisor/student should be a lifelong relationship.

<<Emphasis added.>>

The operative phrase in the sentence above is "should be" . Unfortunately, in some instances, "should be" does not in actuality become "is". I speak both from my own personal PhD experience and from an ~15 yr stint as a volunteer mentor in a program that matched industrial scientists and engineers with STEM students. During the course of that program, my matches included ~12 PhD students, who enrolled in the program because they were not getting sufficient support from their advisors. Their instances spanned the spectrum from benign neglect to egregious abuse by their advisors.

 

[WWGD]

I don't know if this is obvious to all, but particularly at this moment, stay as far as possible from politics. Too many rabid lunatics on both sides pushing their agenda.

 

[CrysPhys]

I have a question: I am sending emails to my PhD supervisor explaining my situation to get some guidance and help from him, but he stopped responding, after he kept telling me just keep applying and don't give up. My knowledge in my field is now is outdated after 3 years of not working in the field. Is this a normal behavior from PhD supervisors not giving even suggestions to their previous PhD students? Obviously I cannot force him to help me or even to respond, but I believe he could help me. He has previous PhD and master students in the industry. He didn't help at all during my PhD thesis, and also after I finished to get my first job. Now I am worried he won't give me good recommendation because he stopped responding, and he is one of two references I have in my field!

<<Emphasis added>>

By now you should realize that asking what is "normal" isn't very helpful. How other supervisors interact with their students (former or present) is irrelevant. The only interaction that is relevant is the one between your former supervisor and you.

 

[ProbablyNotMe]

<<Emphasis added>>

By now you should realize that asking what is "normal" isn't very helpful. How other supervisors interact with their students (former or present) is irrelevant. The only interaction that is relevant is the one between your former supervisor and you.

That's true. I was trying to judge if asking my supervisor for help or suggestions is wrong or asking for too much from him, because he stopped responding to me.

 

[Timo]

I am sending emails to my PhD supervisor explaining my situation to get some guidance and help from him, but he stopped responding, [...]. Now I am worried he won't give me good recommendation because he stopped responding, and he is one of two references I have in my field!

Judging from the other responses you got on this I may be alone with my opinion, but: I do not think that your PhD supervisor is qualified to give you career advice outside of academia. Most university professors never had a full-time job outside of academia. It is also unlikely that former students that left academia keep contact with their supervisor - why should they? Maybe in some very applied disciplines that may be different. In certain fields like civil engineering it is common that some university professors have a first job as the CEO of some company and essentially use the university as their recruiting platform. But if your advisor is not that type of professor, that doesn't help you much.

I think a random stranger on the street is more helpful to you than your PhD advisor. The fact that you got an 8-ball style reply from him ("keep trying") also suggests that. Don't worry about this affecting the recommendation. There is no reason for him to change it, and nothing you can do to improve it, anyways. But I recommend not sending further mails to ask for advice. If he cannot help you, what's he supposed to do?

 

[Vanadium 50]

Most university professors never had a full-time job outside of academia.

This is much less true in engineering than in other fields.

That said, I don't think we have a clear picture on the interaction with the professor. On the one hand, he is "sending emails to my PhD supervisor" who has "stopped responding", but on the other, "In the last 6 years, I contacted my PhD supervisor 4-6 times".

 

[bob012345]

This is much less true in engineering than in other fields.

That said, I don't think we have a clear picture on the interaction with the professor. On the one hand, he is "sending emails to my PhD supervisor" who has "stopped responding", but on the other, "In the last 6 years, I contacted my PhD supervisor 4-6 times".

Do we know what the OP's thesis was?

 

[StatGuy2000]

Can I ask why these immigrant groups face the greatest difficulties from all other non-European immigrant groups? I try not to focus on this, and put all the blame on being a non-European white immigrant, because I cannot do anything about it, but I am interested in knowing how this may have affected me in Canada.

I have one simple answer -- racism.

Contrary to what is at times reported, racism is a problem in Canada, and racial prejudice is often most directed towards Indigenous Canadians and immigrants of Middle Eastern/North African and sub-Saharan African backgrounds.

As to what you've said about already working survival jobs, all I can say is to keep at it, as you have no other choices.

 

[WWGD]

I have one simple answer -- racism.

Contrary to what is at times reported, racism is a problem in Canada, and racial prejudice is often most directed towards Indigenous Canadians and immigrants of Middle Eastern/North African and sub-Saharan African backgrounds.

As to what you've said about already working survival jobs, all I can say is to keep at it, as you have no other choices.

I hear similar claims in the US, yet if you look at the data

 

[WWGD]

I hear similar claims in the US, yet if you look at the data View attachment 285785

Surely these are the cream of the crop migrating but not being native/white has not been a major obstacle.

 

[ProbablyNotMe]

I hear similar claims in the US, yet if you look at the data View attachment 285785

In the US, the job market is large and vibrant, and the demand in high tech is more than supply, and immigrants are usually highly skilled. In Canada the job market is small and high tech companies are very limited, and thus I believe this discriminations is more common. It's not uncommon so see complete or the vast majority of workforce in companies to be white people. If I see such companies I move on, because I know they won't consider me. The PM is trying to make changes, but I doubt employers would get onboard.