Massless Particle Action under Conformal Killing Vector Transformation

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the action for a massless particle under the transformation induced by a conformal Killing vector. Participants explore the implications of this transformation on the action's invariance and the mathematical details involved in the derivation. The scope includes theoretical aspects of particle dynamics and the mathematical formulation of actions in the context of general relativity and conformal transformations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the action for a massless particle and describes how it changes under a conformal Killing vector transformation, questioning how to show that the remaining integral vanishes.
  • Another participant points out a missing term in the last expression and suggests that the term becomes zero for a massless particle, while also noting the constancy of a specific quantity related to the motion.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of the integrand being zero for a massless particle, with one participant questioning whether the action should be treated as that of a massive particle before taking the limit as mass approaches zero.
  • Another participant proposes that the integral could be expressed in terms of the original action, raising questions about its usefulness.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about how to proceed with a specific term involving the derivatives of the coordinates.
  • There is a suggestion that the discussion could lead to a parametrization-independent formulation of the action for massive particles, with references to time-like geodesics.
  • A participant emphasizes the need to consider the equations of motion for the einbein to understand the massless nature and conformal symmetry of the particle.
  • Technical advice is given regarding the correct formatting of mathematical expressions in LaTeX.
  • Another participant discusses the use of the chain rule to express a divergence in the integrand, mentioning a theorem related to the trace of the Lie derivative of the metric.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of certain terms in the action and the treatment of the massless particle case. There is no consensus on how to resolve the questions raised regarding the invariance of the action and the mathematical details involved.

Contextual Notes

Participants note missing terms and the dependence on specific mathematical formulations, as well as unresolved steps in the derivation. The discussion reflects a complex interplay of mathematical reasoning and theoretical physics concepts.

ergospherical
Science Advisor
Homework Helper
Education Advisor
Insights Author
Messages
1,100
Reaction score
1,387
For a massless particle let\begin{align*}
S[x,e] = \dfrac{1}{2} \int d\lambda e^{-1} \dot{x}^{\mu} \dot{x}^{\nu} g_{\mu \nu}(x)
\end{align*}Let ##\xi## be a conformal Killing vector of ##ds^2##, then under a transformation ##x^{\mu} \rightarrow x^{\mu} + \alpha \xi^{\mu}## and ##e \rightarrow e + \dfrac{1}{4} \alpha e g^{\mu \nu} (L_{\xi} g)_{\mu \nu}## the action changes (to first order in ##\alpha##) as\begin{align*}
S[x,e] &\rightarrow \dfrac{1}{2} \int d\lambda e^{-1} \left(1- \dfrac{1}{4} \alpha g^{\rho \sigma} (L_{\xi} g)_{\rho \sigma} \right)(\dot{x}^{\mu} + \alpha \dot{\xi}^{\mu})(\dot{x}^{\nu} + \alpha \dot{\xi}^{\nu}) g_{\mu \nu}(x) \\ \\

&= S[x,e] + \dfrac{1}{2} \int d\lambda e^{-1} \left( \alpha [\dot{x}^{\mu} \dot{\xi}^{\nu} + \dot{x}^{\nu} \dot{\xi}^{\mu}] - \dfrac{1}{4}\alpha g^{\rho \sigma} (L_{\xi} g)_{\rho \sigma} \dot{x}^{\mu} \dot{x}^{\nu} \right) g_{\mu \nu}(x)
\end{align*}Since ##\xi## is a conformal Killing vector it satisfies ##(L_{\xi} g)_{\mu \nu} = \Omega^2 g_{\mu \nu}## therefore ##\dfrac{1}{4} g^{\rho \sigma} (L_{\xi} g)_{\rho \sigma} = \dfrac{1}{4} \Omega^2 {\delta^{\rho}}_{\rho} = \Omega^2## so\begin{align*}

S[x,e] \rightarrow S[x,e] + \dfrac{1}{2} \int d\lambda e^{-1} \alpha \left( [\dot{x}^{\mu} \dot{\xi}^{\nu} + \dot{x}^{\nu} \dot{\xi}^{\mu}] - \Omega^2 \dot{x}^{\mu} \dot{x}^{\nu} \right)

\end{align*}This transformation should leave ##S## invariant, so how does one show that the remaining integral vanishes? Is it a case of integrating by parts and neglecting a boundary term, in which case, which one?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
You seem to have dropped a ##g_{\mu\nu}## from your last expression. Putting it back in, the last term becomes ##\Omega^2\dot x^\mu\dot x^\nu g_{\mu\nu}## which is zero for a massless particle.

The term in square brackets becomes ##2\dot x_\mu\dot\xi^\mu##. Noting that ##\frac d{d\lambda}(\dot x_\mu\xi^\mu)=\dot x_\mu\dot\xi^\mu+\ddot x_\mu\xi^\mu## and that ##\dot x_\mu\xi^\mu=\mathrm{const}## it reduces to ##-2\ddot x_\mu\xi^\mu##, although I'm not sure that helps.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: ergospherical
Ibix said:
You seem to have dropped a ##g_{\mu\nu}## from your last expression. Putting it back in, the last term becomes ##\Omega^2\dot x^\mu\dot x^\nu g_{\mu\nu}## which is zero for a massless particle.

One thing I don't understand is that if ##\dot{x}^\mu\dot x^\nu g_{\mu\nu}=0## then the integrand of ##S[x,e]## is also identically zero hence also ##S[x,e]##, which seems wrong. Maybe you are supposed to treat it as the action of a massive particle then at the end take ##m \rightarrow 0##?
 
Last edited:
Yeah, you're right. Never mind.

But ##\frac 12\int d\lambda e^{-1}\alpha\Omega^2\dot x^\mu\dot x^\nu g_{\mu\nu}## would appear to be ##\alpha\Omega^2S[x,e]##. Is that useful?
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: ergospherical
I don't know haha, not sure what to do with ##\dot{x}^{\mu} \dot{\xi}^{\nu} + \dot{x}^{\nu} \dot{\xi}^{\mu}##
 
Isn't the upshot of this idea to finally end up with the parametrization independent formulation of the action functional for massive particles (i.e., time-like geodesics)
$$S=-\int \mathrm{d} \lambda \sqrt{g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^{\mu} \dot{x}^{\nu}}?$$
 
vanhees71 said:
Isn't the upshot of this idea to finally end up with the parametrization independent formulation of the action functional for massive particles (i.e., time-like geodesics)
$$S=-\int \mathrm{d} \lambda \sqrt{g_{\mu \nu} \dot{x}^{\mu} \dot{x}^{\nu}}?$$
Yes, by using the algebraic equation of motion of the einbein. But here TS asks about the explicit invariance of the world line action under general coordinate transformations (target space) in the guise of conformal transformations. I'd say you need to use the equations of motion for e; how else would the particle know it's massless and exhibits conformal symmetry?
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71
@Alexandru123 please use the LaTeX Guide (there's a link to it at the bottom left of the post window) to get the correct LaTeX code for formatting math.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Alexandru123
Make ##d\xi/d\lambda = (d\xi^{\mu}/dx^{\mu})*dx^{\mu}/d\lambda##. Which will allow you to put the 2 ##\dot{x}## in evidence. ( this is the chain rule with ##x^{\mu}## until I find out to write out formulas in latex here)
Then you'll get ##2* \nabla \cdot \xi - \Omega^2## in the integrand.
There is one last theorem where ##(1/2) \nabla \cdot \xi = \Omega^2## by tracing ##L_{\xi} g= \Omega^2 g##. However here is where I get stuck.
 
Last edited:
  • #10
@Alexandru123 if you are trying to write a divergence in LaTeX, i.e., ##\nabla \cdot \xi##, use "\nabla \cdot" as the operator.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Alexandru123

Similar threads

  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
659
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 30 ·
2
Replies
30
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
940
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K