Max Born's Reflections on the Non-Existent Ether

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on Max Born's references to the luminiferous ether in his book "Einstein's Theory of Relativity," published in 1920. Participants explore the historical context of these references, the implications for Special Relativity, and the relationship between Lorentz Ether Theory and Special Relativity. The conversation touches on theoretical interpretations and the evolution of scientific thought regarding the ether concept.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Historical

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that Born's references to the ether may be historical and dismissive, suggesting he uses it as a teaching aid to transition from Lorentz Ether Theory (LET) to Special Relativity (SR).
  • Others argue that if Special Relativity aligns with reality, it cannot be incompatible with Lorentz Ether Theory, as both share the principle of relativity.
  • A participant points out that Born acknowledges the ether's existence in certain contexts, such as in discussing the Doppler effect, but ultimately dismisses it later in the book.
  • There is a request for clarification on a specific statement regarding the influence of ether on the Doppler effect, indicating a desire for deeper understanding of Born's analysis.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the significance of Born's references to the ether, with some seeing them as historical context while others interpret them as an implicit endorsement of the ether's existence. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these references for the understanding of Special Relativity and Lorentz Ether Theory.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the historical context of Born's writing and the scientific understanding of the ether at the time, noting that the discussion may depend on interpretations of his statements and the definitions of terms used.

khil_phys
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Max Born, in his book "Einstein's Theory of Relativity", keeps referring to the luminiferous ether repeatedly, as if it were real. The book was published in 1920, it had been definitively proved by 1890 that no such thing as the ether existed. Can anyone tell why does Born keep going on with it?
 
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Old habits die hard.
 
khil_phys said:
Max Born, in his book "Einstein's Theory of Relativity", keeps referring to the luminiferous ether repeatedly, as if it were real. The book was published in 1920, it had been definitively proved by 1890 that no such thing as the ether existed. Can anyone tell why does Born keep going on with it?
If Special Relativity comports with reality, and since the second postulate states that any frame of reference you choose will have all the characteristics of an absolute ether rest state, then Special Relativity cannot be incompatible with Lorentz Ether Theory which merely states that such an absolute ether rest state exists. Both theories share the same first postulate which is the principle of relativity.

Maybe Max Born recognizes this fact and uses it to transition from the ideas of LET to the ideas of SR as a teaching aid. Do you find his development sensible?
 
khil_phys, Born's book is online at archive.org, and from what I can see his reference to the ether is historical and dismissive. For example on p.161 he says, "Even nowadays there are some people who regard the mechanical explanation of the electromagnetic ether as a postulate of reason. Such theories still continue to crop up, and, naturally, they become more and more abstruse since the abundance of the facts to be explained grows, and hence the difficulty of the task increases without cessation."
 
Bill_K said:
khil_phys, Born's book is online at archive.org, and from what I can see his reference to the ether is historical and dismissive. For example on p.161 he says, "Even nowadays there are some people who regard the mechanical explanation of the electromagnetic ether as a postulate of reason. Such theories still continue to crop up, and, naturally, they become more and more abstruse since the abundance of the facts to be explained grows, and hence the difficulty of the task increases without cessation."

ghwellsjr said:
If Special Relativity comports with reality, and since the second postulate states that any frame of reference you choose will have all the characteristics of an absolute ether rest state, then Special Relativity cannot be incompatible with Lorentz Ether Theory which merely states that such an absolute ether rest state exists. Both theories share the same first postulate which is the principle of relativity.

Maybe Max Born recognizes this fact and uses it to transition from the ideas of LET to the ideas of SR as a teaching aid. Do you find his development sensible?

I get what you mean. And considering the time when this book was written, it is completely sensible.

But still, Born assumes the existence of the ether as real, as is implicitly stated in these words on pg. 106 - "The Doppler effect does not only depend on the relative
motion of the source of light and of the observer, but also to a slight extent on the motions of both with respect to the ether. But this influence is so small that it escapes observation; moreover, in the case of a common translation of the source of light and of the observer it is
rigorously equal to zero.
 
Born assumes the existence of the ether, analyzes the possibility in great detail, and finally dismisses it on p 191. This book is a really good historical survey of the theories that were advanced as alternatives to Einstein's relativity, and the experiments that resolved the issue.
 
I agree with you.

Also, please explain this statement - But this influence is so small that it escapes observation; moreover, in the case of a common translation of the source of light and of the observer it is rigorously equal to zero.
 

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