Measuring Gravity with a Zero Mass Device?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the hypothetical scenario of a gravity measuring device with no mass and whether it could detect the gravitational pull of a planet. Participants explore concepts related to gravity, mass, and the interaction of light with gravitational fields, touching on theoretical implications and experimental observations.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that a device with no mass would not be able to measure gravity since it would not be affected by gravitational forces.
  • Others argue that gravity is the attraction between objects with mass, suggesting that if an object were isolated, it would not exhibit gravitational effects.
  • One participant mentions that massless particles like photons are affected by gravity, implying that a massless device could still measure gravitational effects indirectly.
  • Another participant questions whether photons gravitationally attract each other, noting the complexity of such interactions without a complete theory of quantum gravity.
  • Some contributions highlight that light can be used to infer gravitational effects through phenomena like gravitational lensing, Shapiro delay, and gravitational redshift, suggesting alternative measurement methods that do not rely on mass.
  • There is a correction regarding the interpretation of how light interacts with gravity, emphasizing that while light is affected by gravity, it does not imply that it can measure gravitational pull in the same way as a mass would.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the ability of a massless device to measure gravity, with no consensus reached on the implications of light's interaction with gravity or the nature of gravitational measurement.

Contextual Notes

Some discussions involve assumptions about the nature of mass and gravity, as well as the conditions under which light can be used to measure gravitational effects. There are unresolved questions about the interaction of massless particles and the theoretical frameworks that govern these interactions.

YADA
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If I had a hypothetical gravity measuring device that had no mass, would it be able to measure the gravity of a planet, that does have mass, as it approached it? Or would it not detect any gravity because the device has no mass?

I hope this makes sense...
 
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It would have to have some form of mass to be affected by gravity. Therefore it would have no way of measuring the gravitational pull if it is unaffected by it. Unless of course it was measuring another object which did have mass being pulled towards the planet.
 
Thanks for the reply, Uk_Ghost.

So the Earth, or any other planet, doesn't actually have gravity? I mean, is gravity just the attraction of two objects with mass? If an object was somehow isolated and couldn't interact with other objects, then it wouldn't really have gravity?
 
Yes, all objects with mass have gravitational pull. The amount depends on the mass of the object. Like how the Earth has enough mass to be able to keep the Moon in orbit around it but the Moon's mass is also big enough to affect the Earth's tides. If an object was able to have no mass it would not be attracted to anything with mass.

I'm not sure what you mean by isolating something though. I'm assuming its the same concept as 'if a tree fell in the woods and no one was around to hear it would it make a sound?'
 
Uk_Ghost said:
I'm not sure what you mean by isolating something though. I'm assuming its the same concept as 'if a tree fell in the woods and no one was around to hear it would it make a sound?'

Yes, but I didn't think of it like that. So it's no really a question worth answering...

Thanks again for your help.
 
No worries :)
 
YADA said:
If I had a hypothetical gravity measuring device that had no mass, would it be able to measure the gravity of a planet, that does have mass, as it approached it?
The previous response is incorrect. It was one of the early successful tests of general relativity that massless particles like photons are also measurably affected by gravity.
 
interesting; does that mean photons gravitationally attract other photons? or is the gravitational attraction with photons a special case and only 'one way'?
 
As has been mentioned, light is massless and yet is affected by gravity. Therefore it is possible to make an instrument that detects gravity without it itself having any mass...or at least without it relying on its mass to make the measurement. It could be an intrument that relies on light, or time, or speed instead.

In fact, we can calculate the gravity of certain cosmic objects simply by looking at how they bend light. So in effect we are measuring ther gravity without directly using any mass to do so.
 
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  • #10
Lsos said:
As has been mentioned, light is massless and yet is not affected by gravity. Therefore it is possible to make an instrument that detects gravity without is itself having any mass...or at least without it relying on its mass to make the measurement. It could be an intrument that relies on light, or time, or speed instead.

In fact, we can calculate the gravity of certain cosmic objects simply by looking at how they bend light. So in effect we are measuring ther gravity without directly using any mass to do so.

first paragraph, surely a typo on first line?
second paragraph, I am fairly sure the OP is talking about the measuring device being affected by gravity and being massless, as opposed to being massless and capable of measurement (based on the wording about approaching the object)
 
  • #11
Molydood said:
does that mean photons gravitationally attract other photons?
Well, that is hard to answer without a complete theory of quantum gravity, but if you change from "photon" to "brief pulse of light" then yes, they do interact. Each would be described by the Aichelburg–Sexl ultraboost solution.
 
  • #12
DaleSpam said:
Each would be described by the Aichelburg–Sexl ultraboost solution.

what a great name for a theory :smile:
 
  • #13
As has been mentioned, light is massless and yet is affected by gravity.

The speed of light is a constant. How could you possibly it to tell us the gravitational pull of a planet?

The only time light is 'bent' is during gravitational lensing from something huge like a black hole or a galaxy cluster which creates warped space-time which would bend everything in it. It that scenario you would be able to tell the gravitational effect of warped-space on light but you wouldn't be able to use light to tell us the gravatational pull of a planet, which was the original question.
 
  • #14
Gravity bends light. The more gravity the more it bends...

This means that whether it goes around a cluster of galaxies or a cluster of fat chicks, it should bend. Yeah, good luck measuring this...but nevertheless the effect is there.
 
  • #15
Uk_Ghost said:
The speed of light is a constant. How could you possibly it to tell us the gravitational pull of a planet?
Speed isn't the only property that light has that can be used to tell us about the gravity of a planet. Gravitational lensing has already been mentioned, and there is also Shapiro delay and gravitational redshift all of which can be observed within the solar system. The frequency change due to Earth's gravity could be detected using technology from 1959: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pound–Rebka_experiment
 
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