Medical school if I find biology boring?

[Razael]

I find chemistry extremely interesting but biology the epitome of boring. I'd rather do 10 hours of organic chemistry than 5 hours of biology.

How would this relate to medical school? Is it more like chemistry (conceptual, stuff fits together like a puzzle) or biology (rote memorization)?

 

[SW VandeCarr]

I find chemistry extremely interesting but biology the epitome of boring. I'd rather do 10 hours of organic chemistry than 5 hours of biology.

How would this relate to medical school? Is it more like chemistry (conceptual, stuff fits together like a puzzle) or biology (rote memorization)?

If you don't like biology because it requires a lot of rote memory, you're not going to like medical school. Ultimately, medicine does require reasoning, but it's based a large information base. You will be quizzed constantly on facts when you go on hospital rounds, but will not likely be asked for your opinion until you are in your third year or so. It takes that long to know enough facts to have an opinion.

If you like chemistry, it seems that biochemistry would be a logical choice. It's a cutting edge field and research grants are more easily obtained than in other fields. Why would you consider medical school? Security? A possible MD, PhD combination? I'm not sure that combination would be worth the time. A combination doctorate in pharmacology with an MD would make more sense.

 

[Razael]

Medicine has been my goal since before high school, but based on how biology is going perhaps I should find an alternative. Thanks!

 

[mal4mac]

Does biology have to involve more rote memorization than chemistry? Don't biological structures fit together like a puzzle? Isn't, say, seeing how a cell fits together just as much "puzzle fun" as seeing how molecules are structured?

I remember seeing a documentary about trainee doctors where they were memorizing the latin names of all the bones. Now *that's* rote memorization. Put me right off medicine...

 

[Dembadon]

A career in medicine is more than just an affection for biology; it's a calling. Nothing you do in undergrad will prepare you for the rigors of medical school, or the challenges of a residency. Please do not base your decisions on an undergraduate biology course.

Have you shadowed any physicians yet? You need to find out if you even like being in a hospital or not. Volunteer at a local hospital if you can. Get involved with the healthcare system in some way and see if you even like it, because even an obsession with chemistry/biology isn't a good indicator on whether or not you should pursue medicine.

I highly encourage you to do some research on the entire process to becoming a physician (or whatever you're looking to do). It is a grueling process that'll consume massive amounts of your time for many years to come. The AMA and AAMC have lots of information on their websites, as well as http://forums.studentdoctor.net/index.php" (be careful when perusing the premed forums, though!)

It will take some time for you to figure this out; become familiar with the application process and make sure that you're on track! There's a lot to keep track of and many important deadlines to meet. I assume you've met with a premedical advisor? If not, get to it!

Best of luck to you!

 

[cdotter]

Everything I read tells me medical school is rote memorization...as in memorizing literally thousands of powerpoint slides for a single exam. Then again that's medical school and not practicing medicine. While memorization is undoubtedly a big part of practicing medicine, so are conceptual thinking and problem solving for internal medicine, pattern recognition for diagnostic radiology, finesse and dexterity for plastic reconstructive surgery, etc.

 

[SW VandeCarr]

Everything I read tells me medical school is rote memorization...as in memorizing literally thousands of powerpoint slides for a single exam. Then again that's medical school and not practicing medicine. While memorization is undoubtedly a big part of practicing medicine, so are conceptual thinking and problem solving for internal medicine, pattern recognition for diagnostic radiology, finesse and dexterity for plastic reconstructive surgery, etc.

You may have read about it, but I did it. As I said, you must acquire a large fund of knowledge before you can begin to apply reasoning to derive hypotheses and formulate diagnoses and treatment plans effectively. However, your view is a bit outdated. For for at least the past 40 years, medical students have been getting increasing hospital and clinical experience as they progress though medical school. The old fashioned internship has long been replaced by first year residencies. To a large extent, a senior medical student is practicing medicine under supervision. She or he (about half of all medical students in the US are female) has their own patients and are part of a team that includes resident and staff physicians with whom they constantly interact.

Having said that, I could never recommend medicine as a career to someone who says biology is the "epitome of boring" because of the rote learning that is required. It's simply a fact that the human body is very complex "machine" that challenges our understanding.

 

[aphelion1736]

I find chemistry extremely interesting but biology the epitome of boring. I'd rather do 10 hours of organic chemistry than 5 hours of biology.

How would this relate to medical school? Is it more like chemistry (conceptual, stuff fits together like a puzzle) or biology (rote memorization)?

If you can manage at least "B" level in your biology classes and excel in chemistry, physics math etc then medical is still "doable." What I can tell you though is that with your current disposition you are likely in for a very ROUGH ride!

I am speaking for experience: majoring in chemistry, though I liked physics/math more b/c of my interest in medicine. I knew I would not be intellectually satisfied with a straight biology major-so i chose chemistry as a "middle ground." (I later wished I had stuck with majoring in physics while minoring in biology/chemistry as I met numerous engineering/physics and every other major in medical school). Anyhow, the disproportionate amount of memorization in biology always put me off and when i did AP classes I couldn't stand memorizing metabolic cycles (Kreb's cycle etc) until i appreciated the organic chemistry behind it! I went on to obtain a good MCAT score (>30) with my lowest score in... you guest it : biology/verbal. I got admitted to several reputable medical schools but moved on to grad school in chemistry (the reason i did is complex and won't explain here but it wasn't academically related though I was delighted to learn more physical science). After taking graduate classes like quantum chemistry, computational chem,etc and even biochemistry and doing experimental research in physical chemistry with cool laser equipment etc, I decided that career-wise I prefer medicine...and that's where everything about my approach to learning science got brutally challenge to the CORE!

Delving immediately into first year medical school classes (especially histology and anatomy) was a HUGE shock! It felt like HIGH SCHOOL all over again. Many of the folks that did well spoke of reading their notes over at least 3-4 times to "get it." This was the craziest thing and reminded of how I remembered complex topics in high school-by just rote memorization without immediately understanding everything from first principles! You have to become COMFORTABLE with this-and know that the big picture UNDERSTANDING might be DELAYED for several years. In retrospect this makes sense because the first few years of medical school represent the very foundation of medical practice -such that it is studied at the undergraduate level in many countries-It is just stuff you have to HUMBLE yourself and MEMORIZE! I was accustomed to reading things just once and latching on to the concepts and excelling on the exam-this was not be the case for me in histology and anatomy. I had to succumb to sitting for hours REreading the same thing as well as devising mindless mnemonics!

Anyway, almost done with med school now I feel it's very doable-persons like yourself need to realize EARLY on that most of med school is about KNOWLEDGE acquisition like another author said. You will spend most of your time acquiring knowledge and taking exams-stuff you won't apply until later in your career. It's like spending years learning just the alphabet, grammar etc of a very alien language, so one day you can speak it fluently(medical practice). My advise-make sure you are genuinely interested in the field (as someone else suggested try shadowing several doctors at the hospital etc)-then keep your approach to learning flexible recognizing that rote memorization is often a necessary part of learning (think back to Kindergarten for a second!) and you need a good mix of thinking and memorizing skills ultimately.Good luck!

Learning without thought is labor lost; thought without learning is perilous.
Confucius, The Confucian Analects

 

[SW VandeCarr]

If you can manage at least "B" level in your biology classes and excel in chemistry, physics math etc then medical is still "doable." What I can tell you though is that with your current disposition you are likely in for a very ROUGH ride!

Learning without thought is labor lost; thought without learning is perilous.
Confucius, The Confucian Analects

It's doable, but the OP needs to ask why he/she wants to go to medical school. (BTW, I love that quote)

It's a mistake to go to medical school for the (eventual) income. You have to figure your income over a lifetime and how it compares with other professions. If you are going into medicine for altruistic reasons, that's fine but it helps to have a rich relative and/or supportive family. In another post, I outlined a typical work week for a successful orthopedic surgeon, one of the highest earning medical specialties. You make it, but your family enjoys it. Also, in the US as an orthopedic surgeon, you can also expect to spend at least a few days in court with your lawyer every year. It doesn't matter how good a surgeon (or how caring) you are. In addition, I think the future trend in the US is for falling incomes for MDs relative to other careers .

If you're going into medicine with intention of doing research, you're narrowing your goal to clinical research (including Phase I drug studies in healthy volunteers) since this is the area where the MD degree is really needed. Otherwise the PhD is a better goal since so much of the medical curriculum is aimed at patient care. IMO, the best motive for going to medical school is a real interest patient care and in learning everything you need to know in order to better assure the most optimal of possible outcomes for the patient.

 

[ParticleGrl]

It's a mistake to go to medical school for the (eventual) income. You have to figure your income over a lifetime and how it compares with other professions. If you are going into medicine for altruistic reasons, that's fine but it helps to have a rich relative and/or supportive family. In another post, I outlined a typical work week for a successful orthopedic surgeon, one of the highest earning medical specialties. You make it, but family enjoys it.

Of course, there are other specialties than orthopedic surgeon. My sister specialized in emergency medicine. Now as an attending she makes 170k and works 36 hours (12 hours, 3 days a week). Good work if you can get it.

Its a mistake to get a phd for the money, because there really isn't any (nor is there any job security, etc). Its much less of a mistake to go into medicine for the money- medical doctors still make much more over their careers than most other fields.

 

[SW VandeCarr]

Of course, there are other specialties than orthopedic surgeon. My sister specialized in emergency medicine. Now as an attending she makes 170k and works 36 hours (12 hours, 3 days a week). Good work if you can get it.

Its a mistake to get a phd for the money, because there really isn't any (nor is there any job security, etc). Its much less of a mistake to go into medicine for the money- medical doctors still make much more over their careers than most other fields.

I worked in EM for a number of years and passed the EM boards. I liked it for the reasons you say but it would have been unbearable if I didn't enjoy the work. Part of my experience was in a Level 1 Trauma Center with academic affiliations. My point was that medicine challenges your knowledge and skills and you must be prepared at all times if you want to get an optimal result. If you' re not interested in the material you need to know, you are not going be prepared. It's a great source of satisfaction to be able to stabilize severely injured or ill patients. I also worked in smaller community hospitals where I had to know more and do more because there was no one else and patients had to made ready for a safe transfer.

I have friends who went into finance, engineering, real estate, architecture, hospital administration, solid state physics, computer sciences etc. After 7 years out of undergraduate, they were all making more than me. After 15 years I was making more than many of them, but I doubt I'll ever catch up in lifetime income (not that that's important) since I'm now retired. Don't forget most medical students probably graduate from medical school with a substantial negative net worth. But I liked (almost) everything I was involved with and felt I made a contribution. That's what's important. The "crap" I had to learn wasn't "crap" and I actually applied most of it.

BTW, I didn't say you should go for a PhD for the money. I said you should go for a PhD if you're interested in research. If your interest is cell biology or biochemistry, you don't generally need to spend the time and money for an MD degree.

 

[ParticleGrl]

I have friends who went into finance, engineering, real estate, architecture, hospital administration, solid state physics, computer sciences etc. After 7 years out of undergraduate, they were all making more than me. After 15 years I was making more than many of them, but I doubt I'll ever catch up in lifetime income

I obviously can't speak to your situation, but certainly the average MD makes substantially more over their career than the average phd, even with the debt.

I'd actually be surprised if 7 years after undergrad, a med student would be making less than a phd solid state physicist. After all, the physicist is either just finishing their phd, or in their first postdoc, and the med student is a senior resident.

BTW, I didn't say you should go for a PhD for the money. I said you should go for a PhD if you're interested in research. If your interest is cell biology or biochemistry, you don't generally need to spend the time and money for an MD degree.

Keep in mind that med school+residency (without a fellowship) is shorter than a phd+postdocs (and in many cases is shorter than just getting a phd), and I know MDs doing bench research. An MD might be a better route to a stable research career, given the tremendous job uncertainty for phd researchers. You'll have clinical responsibilities, but a more stable career (without a decade of temporary contracts) might be worth it.

 

[aphelion1736]

It's doable, but the OP needs to ask why he/she wants to go to medical school. (BTW, I love that quote)

Yes, I agree with you (thanks -and for some reason many things Confucius said still resonate with us...). However,the "why" represents multiple factors which are very dynamic in nature-even though the most decisive factor in the decision to choose medicine ought to be the drive to care for others, many are afraid to admit that how much they will earn is an important factor in this decision or they act as though it's some sort of heresy to consider the the money. Of course, money should not be the principal factor for going into any field-but one has to be more careful indeed when that field is medicine since a doctor is in charge of other people's lives. As SW VandeCarr said though if you don't enjoy what you have to do (including the rote memorization aspect of things alluded to by the OP) you might not be able to stick with job despite a decent income.

As for pursuing PhD vs MD, based on student interests-what ParticleGrl said is more consistent with what I have observed about graduate school and the job prospects (keeping in mind that most PhDs/MSs don't come from just Harvard or Berkeley-there are many graduating from lesser known schools who have to resort to teaching community college etc or go on to serial post docs earning 30k for several years while dreaming of 80k tenure-track position). Many MDs in academia now do basic research without a PhD, especially fellowship trained doctors. I'm not sure how it works in terms of competing with PhD s for grants (based on the more research focussed qualifications of the latter) but in general there's more money for health care/bioscience research than most other fields so they seem to get funded anyway. It would nice for Dr VandeCarr to share his experience doing research with Pharma and how that shapes his view on MD vs PhD (and vs MD/w MS/MPH or PhD) for a research oriented student-as I suspect the environment in terms of funding might be very different from university research work.

It's a mistake to go to medical school for the (eventual) income. You have to figure your income over a lifetime and how it compares with other professions. If you are going into medicine for altruistic reasons, that's fine but it helps to have a rich relative and/or supportive family. In another post, I outlined a typical work week for a successful orthopedic surgeon, one of the highest earning medical specialties. You make it, but your family enjoys it. Also, in the US as an orthopedic surgeon, you can also expect to spend at least a few days in court with your lawyer every year. It doesn't matter how good a surgeon (or how caring) you are. In addition, I think the future trend in the US is for falling incomes for MDs relative to other careers.

I guess some people may sit down and compute which career will net them the highest lifetime income-then make a decision, but it would be more realistic to approach this taking many other factors (personal interest, job security, prestige, family time, retirement benefits etc) into consideration and coming to a compromise. For many, being an orthopedic surgeon and working for 1/2 million dollars a year-with crazy schedule- does not fit this kind of compromise-this is an extreme scenario right?-and is well presented if one is thinking chiefly about money... Instead the median of med student aspirations today will be likely represented by the example given by ParticleGrl: work 36 hrs a week, make around 150k, have some time with family and for vacation etc.
One can only hope that many today would realize that in general, working by itself (where income is directly proportional to time input or a function with some strong dependence on time input), is not a good way to become rich without severe sacrifices of other important areas of your life...

 

[SW VandeCarr]

Yes, I agree with you (thanks -and for some reason many things Confucius said still resonate with us...)

Truth isn't a fad.

It would be nice for Dr VandeCarr to share his experience doing research with Pharma and how that shapes his view on MD vs PhD (and vs MD/w MS/MPH or PhD) for a research oriented student-as I suspect the environment in terms of funding might be very different from university research work.

I returned to school under an NIH fellowship program after about 8 years in emergency medicine. I got an MS in epidemiology with applications to pharmaceutical research, mostly in the drug safety area, and worked at the USFDA as an NIH fellow in the US Public Health Service. I do not have a PharmD , but a PharmD + MD might be a good combination for industry. I later worked in pharmaceutical R&D until I retired early to do other things. I was able to do this because I was paid well as I rose though the ranks. The advantage is that in industry you are compensated for production. In academia production means published papers. In the pharma industry production means new safe and effective (and successful) products. You don't need to worry about funding, but you do need to worry about getting it right. It's a complicated process involving science and government regulation. The science is cutting edge as you would expect in a competitive industry. The rewards are good to downright lavish, but the pressure is high. It is not like a comfortable tenured academic sinecure, although academics from all over the world are seeking funding for this or that project.

In short, I can't advise anyone on whether or not to seek research jobs in private industry. It's a matter of personal temperament and goals. If you are risk adverse, it's probably not for you.

 

[aphelion1736]

Thanks sharing your experiences on research in industry for MDs! It all shows that there is quite a wide variety of opportunities available for doctors and even the more technically-minded aspiring physicians like the OP who can still go to medical school and find opportunities in industry after graduation such as with pharmaceutical companies, medical device/instrumentation companies etc in which their clinical training would be an asset...

 

[hyazinth]

I am nearly through med school and I cannot remember that I ever mechanically memorized things, I have always refused to do that. The best and more fun way to learn facts is to study with exam questions and case files. It also helps to read different books or medical journals. You will read the same fact from different perspectives and that should be enough to learn it. Even anatomy can become really interesting if you look at it from the functional aspect. The better doctor is the one who understands what is going on and how he can modify the mechanisms. Facts can be looked up.

 

[Cbray]

I cry every time someone wants to go into medicine