Mutual information of a noisy function

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of mutual information between a random variable Y, defined as a linear function of an independent variable x plus noise, and the implications of x not being a random variable. Participants explore the definitions and conditions under which mutual information can be calculated, questioning the existence of a joint probability distribution for x and Y.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested, Technical explanation, Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant defines Y as a function of x and noise, questioning whether mutual information can be defined since x is not a random variable.
  • Another participant asks whether x is known or constant, seeking clarification on the nature of x in relation to Y.
  • A later reply suggests that x is not constant and is treated as an independent variable, emphasizing the regression context of the problem.
  • One participant argues that when observing Y, x is unknown, thus making it effectively random from the receiver's perspective.
  • Another participant asserts that there is no joint probability function for (x, Y) because x is not a random variable, complicating the assignment of joint probabilities.
  • One participant proposes reversing the roles of x and Y, suggesting that if Y is treated as a function of x, then x could be considered a random variable, but still questions the existence of a joint probability.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the status of x as a random variable and the implications for mutual information. There is no consensus on whether a joint probability distribution can be established between x and Y.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the ambiguity surrounding the definitions of random variables and the conditions necessary for calculating mutual information, particularly in the context of regression and noise.

joshthekid
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So let suppose I have a random variable Y that is defined as follows:
$$Y=\alpha x+ \mathcal{N}(\mu,\sigma) \text{ where } x \text{ } \epsilon \text{ }\mathbb {R}$$
and
$$\mathcal{N}(\mu,\sigma)\text{ is a i.i.d. normally distributed random variable with mean }\mu\text{ and variance }\sigma$$
So I know Y is a random variable, but x is not, however is seems to me that their is a probability measure
$$P(x,Y)\text{ } \epsilon\text{ }[0,1]$$
Therefore, the mutual information is
$$I(x;Y)=H(x)+H(x|Y)=H(Y)+H(Y|x)$$
However it seems that
$$H(x)=-\int_{x}p(x)lnp(x)dx$$
is not defined because x is not a random variable so is their really any mutual information between x and Y? is p(x,Y) an actual joint probability distribution? Any insight would be awesome thanks.
 
Last edited:
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joshthekid said:
So let suppose I have a random variable Y that is defined as follows:
$$Y=\alpha x+ \mathcal{N}(\mu,\sigma) \text{ where } x \text{ } \epsilon \text{ }\mathbb {R}$$
and
$$\mathcal{N}(\mu,\sigma)\text{ is a i.i.d. normally distributed random variable with mean }\mu\text{ and variance }\sigma$$
So I know Y is a random variable, but x is not, however is seems to me that their is a probability measure
$$P(x,Y)\text{ } \epsilon\text{ }[0,1]$$
Therefore, the mutual information is
$$I(x;Y)=H(x)+H(x|Y)=H(Y)+H(Y|x)$$
However it seems that
$$H(x)=-\int_{x}p(x)lnp(x)dx$$
is not defined because x is not a random variable so is their really any mutual information between x and Y? is p(x,Y) an actual joint probability distribution? Any insight would be awesome thanks.

For some reason it is not showing the text between equations. Here it is in full
 
Do you know the value of ##x## (is ##x## a constant?), or you want to estimate it from ##Y##?
 
EngWiPy said:
Do you know the value of ##x## (is ##x## a constant?), or you want to estimate it from ##Y##?
x is not constant it is the independent variable in this case. Without the noise term this would just be a simple linear function $$Y=\alpha x$$
 
Fine, but what it does represent in reality? When you observe ##Y##, do you know what is ##x##?
 
EngWiPy said:
Fine, but what it does represent in reality? When you observe ##Y##, do you know what is ##x##?
Yes. Ultimately this is a regression problem. I have observed values x and observed values Y and want to know the mutual information between them with the knowledge that Y is a linear function of x. For example let's say I send a signal x which is received by a receiver that transforms x by multiplying it by a constant, but their is some unknown source of noise added between reception and transmission. I want to know how much of Y can be explained by x.
 
I suspect that ##x## is unknown at the time of observing ##Y##, which makes it random. Say you have two signals ##x_1## and ##x_2##, and you transmitted ##x_1##. You receive ##y=\alpha\,x_1+n##, where ##n## is the noise. ##x_1## is a number at the transmitter, but at the receiver it is random (it could be ##x_1## or ##x_2##) because it is unknown.
 
There is no jpint probability function that you can assign to the set (x, Y). Since x is not a random variable, it prevents any attempt at assigning joint probabilities.

You could reverse the roles of x and Y and say that ##X = (y - \mathcal{N}(\mu,\,\sigma^{2}) )/\alpha##
In that case, X would be a random variable, y would not be a random variable and there would still not be a joint probability.
 
Last edited:

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