Naive Calculation of the Age of the Universe

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the calculation of the age of the universe using a simplified method that assumes a constant Hubble constant. Participants explore the implications of this approach, particularly the assumptions regarding the velocities of galaxies over time.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant notes the naive nature of the derivation for the age of the universe, highlighting that it assumes constant recessional velocities.
  • Another participant argues that the initial velocities of galaxies were actually higher than the current Hubble velocity, suggesting that the derivation fails to account for the changing dynamics of the universe over time.
  • A later reply clarifies the meaning of a graph related to recession rates, indicating that galaxies currently on the Hubble sphere have different historical velocities due to accelerated expansion.
  • One participant compares the calculation method to determining the time for a car moving at varying speeds, suggesting that an integral approach would be more appropriate.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express disagreement regarding the assumptions made in the naive calculation, particularly about the velocities of galaxies. There is no consensus on the implications of these assumptions or the correct method for calculating the age of the universe.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in the naive calculation method, particularly the dependence on the assumption of constant velocities and the neglect of the effects of dark energy and matter density over time.

jeffbarrington
Messages
23
Reaction score
1
I have marked this as high school level, although I am studying an undergraduate general relativity course, and just want to get some basics right.

Whenever I look for a 'cheap and dirty' method of calculation for the age of the universe, with a Hubble constant not changing with time, I am met with:

t = d/v

where I am meant to believe that t is the age of the universe, d is the separation between two galaxies at some great distance apart, and v is their current speed of separation, given by v = H_0d. However, they haven't always been moving at this speed apart from each other; up until now, they have been traveling at a speed < H_0d. Why are these 'derivations' failing to point out this flaw and what is the workaround?

Thanks
 
Space news on Phys.org
As you note, this derivation of the age of the universe is naive. That's all there is to it. As you correctly surmise, the naivety in it concerns the recessional velocities being constant. That is to say, the age it nets you is the age you'd get in an universe without dark energy accelerating the expansion and without matter and radiation retarding it. (This is called Milne expansion, btw.)
jeffbarrington said:
However, they haven't always been moving at this speed apart from each other; up until now, they have been traveling at a speed < H_0d.
This bit is incorrect. For most of the history of the universe, comoving observers have been receding from each other at recessional velocities higher than ##H_0d##. It's only since approx. 5Gly ago that the velocities are increasing. See the graph below:
recession velocity history.PNG

As you can see, the initial impulse was very high. During the period of high density, recessional velocities were retarded at a very high rate. Around the 8Gly point, due to continuous dilution of matter and radiation dark energy density started dominating, and recessional velocities begun increasing.
 
Just to ensure that Jeff understands the meaning of the graph, Vgen stands for the recession rate of a generic galaxy that presently has a recession rate of c, i.e. some galaxy that is somewhere on the Hubble sphere now, at a comoving distance of 14.4 billion light years from us. Due to the accelerated expansion, that galaxy is presently moving through our Hubble sphere from the 'inside'. It came into our 'then' Hubble sphere at t ~ 3.5 billion years.
 
It's similar to calculating a time t=d/v for a car moving at a varying speed v(t). The proper way is to rephrase the expression into an integral.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 18 ·
Replies
18
Views
3K
  • · Replies 21 ·
Replies
21
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
3K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
3K
  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
4K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
2K
  • · Replies 132 ·
5
Replies
132
Views
13K