Need help finding derivatives and concavity.

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding derivatives and concavity of a function defined by a quotient of polynomials. Participants are working through the application of the quotient rule, simplification of derivatives, and identification of critical points and inflection points, with a focus on parts b and c of a problem set.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses uncertainty about their application of the quotient rule and simplification of the first derivative.
  • Another participant provides the formula for the quotient rule and encourages the original poster to find the derivatives of the numerator and denominator.
  • There is a discussion about the correctness of the derivatives, with one participant correcting another's sign in the derivative expression.
  • Participants discuss the process of finding critical values by setting the first derivative to zero and analyzing the conditions under which this occurs.
  • There is confusion regarding the implications of critical points and whether they lie within the stated domain of the function.
  • One participant suggests that the function is always increasing based on the critical points identified, while another confirms this observation.
  • Participants explore the second derivative and its implications for concavity, with one participant seeking clarification on how to find critical values from the second derivative.
  • There is a request for hints on solving for critical values, indicating ongoing uncertainty about the algebra involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the application of the quotient rule and the identification of critical points, but there remains uncertainty about the implications of these points and the algebra involved in finding concavity. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the final interpretation of the results.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved mathematical steps regarding the simplification of derivatives and the identification of critical values, particularly concerning the restrictions on parameters and the stated domain of the function.

yli
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Hi, I am having some trouble with this problem.
View attachment 7483
I have completed part a but I am stuck on part b and c.
I used the quotient rule to try and find the first derivative, but I am unsure if I have done so correctly. This is my work for part b so far.
\[g\prime(x)=\dfrac{(bc+ax^d)(c+dx^{d-1})-(c+x^d)(bc+adx^{d-1})}{(c+x^d)^2}
\]
If I am doing this properly, I am a bit unsure of how I should simplify this derivative. Thanks, for any help.
 

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Hello, and welcome to MHB, yli! (Wave)

The quotient rule states:

$$\frac{d}{dx}\left(\frac{f_1(x)}{f_2(x)}\right)=\frac{f_1'(x)f_2(x)-f_1(x)f_2'(x)}{f_2^2(x)}$$

Now, let's look at what we have:

$$f_1(x)=bc+ax^d$$

$$f_2(x)=c+x^d$$

Bearing in mind that $a,\,b,\,c,\,d$ are all constants, can you find:

$$f_1'(x)=\,?$$

$$f_2'(x)=\,?$$
 
Since bc is a constant, I am assuming that it will become 0, and so the derivative of the first part should be \[(adx^{d-1})\] Then the derivative of the second part I am assuming is \[(x^{d-1})\] Sorry I am really bad at this and therefore still somewhat confused. Would this be correct?
\[g\prime(x)=\dfrac{(dx^{d-1})(bc+ax^d)-(c+x^d)(adx^{d-1})}{(c+x^d)^2}\]
 
yli said:
Since bc is a constant, I am assuming that it will become 0, and so the derivative of the first part should be \[(adx^{d-1})\] Then the derivative of the second part I am assuming is \[(x^{d-1})\] Sorry I am really bad at this and therefore still somewhat confused. Would this be correct?
\[g\prime(x)=\dfrac{(dx^{d-1})(bc+ax^d)-(c+x^d)(adx^{d-1})}{(c+x^d)^2}\]

You have the negative of the derivative...you should have:

$$g'(x)=\frac{\left(adx^{d-1}\right)\left(c+x^d\right)-\left(bc+ax^d\right)\left(dx^{d-1}\right)}{\left(c+x^d\right)^2}$$

Now, factor the numerator completely...what do you get?
 
Oh, that was a silly mistake. Once I factored I got
\[g\prime(x)=\dfrac{(a-b)cdx^{d-1}}{(c+x^d)^2}\]

I also tried to find the second derivative from this as well, would it be

\[g\prime\prime(x)=\dfrac{(a-b)cd(c+x^d)(x^{d-2}((d-1))(c+x^d)-2dx^d))}{(c+x^d)^4}
\]
I am a bit confused about how I can find the critical values for part b, and the inflection points for part c.
 
yli said:
Oh, that was a silly mistake. Once I factored I got
\[g\prime(x)=\dfrac{(a-b)cdx^{d-1}}{(c+x^d)^2}\]

Yes, that's what I got as well. (Yes)

Before we move on to concavity, let's identify our critical values...that is, those values of $x$ in the given domain where either the numerator is zero, or the denominator is zero. What do you find?
 
Hmmm, this is the part I was confused about because, critical points are where the function is equal to 0. When I set the function to 0, I am lost about what I am supposed to do next,

\[\dfrac{(a-b)cdx^{d-1}}{(c+x^d)^2}=0
\]
\[(a-b)cdx^{d-1}=0
\]
I thought about dividing (a-b) from both sides, but if I do that, I am unsure where to go from there. In this case would the critical value be at x=0? For getting the second critical value where the denominator is equal to zero, when I finish, I think I get \[−^d\sqrt{c}
\]
Does that make sense?
 
yli said:
Hmmm, this is the part I was confused about because, critical points are where the function is equal to 0. When I set the function to 0, I am lost about what I am supposed to do next,

\[\dfrac{(a-b)cdx^{d-1}}{(c+x^d)^2}=0
\]
\[(a-b)cdx^{d-1}=0
\]
I thought about dividing (a-b) from both sides, but if I do that, I am unsure where to go from there. In this case would the critical value be at x=0?

Yes, since we are given $b<a$, then we know $0<a-b$, and so we are not potentially dividing by zero. $c$ and $d$ are post positive, and so they cannot be zero, so we may divide them out as well, and we are left with:

$$x^{d-1}=0\implies x=0$$

Is this part of the stated domain?

yli said:
For getting the second critical value where the denominator is equal to zero, when I finish, I think I get \[−^d\sqrt{c}
\]
Does that make sense?

Yes:

$$(c+x^d)^2=0$$

$$c+x^d=0$$

$$x=(-c)^{\frac{1}{d}}$$

Since $c$ is positive this would make $x<0$ or imaginary...is this part of the stated domain?
 
I believe that these two critical points do not exist on the graph for this function since the domain is restricted to values of x greater than 0. Also because the values of x have to be greater than 0, I am assuming that this function is always increasing. If this is correct, how would I go about finding concavity?
 
  • #10
yli said:
I believe that these two critical points do not exist on the graph for this function since the domain is restricted to values of x greater than 0. Also because the values of x have to be greater than 0, I am assuming that this function is always increasing. If this is correct, how would I go about finding concavity?

Yes, neither critical value is in the stated domain, and you are also correct in that for all $x$ within the stated domain, we have:

$$g'(x)>0$$

The function $g(x)$ increases monotonically from:

$$\lim_{x\to0^{+}}g(x)=b$$

to:

$$\lim_{x\to\infty}g(x)=a$$

Okay, earlier you stated:

yli said:
...I also tried to find the second derivative from this as well, would it be

\[g\prime\prime(x)=\dfrac{(a-b)cd(c+x^d)(x^{d-2}((d-1))(c+x^d)-2dx^d))}{(c+x^d)^4}
\]

Let me check your result:

$$g''(x)=\frac{(a-b)cd(d-1)x^{d-2}\left(c+x^d\right)^2-(a-b)cdx^{d-1}\left(2\left(c+x^d\right)dx^{d-1}\right)}{\left(\left(c+x^d\right)^2\right)^2}$$

$$g''(x)=\frac{(a-b)cdx^{d-2}\left(c+x^d\right)\left((d-1)\left(c+x^d\right)-2dx^d\right)}{\left(c+x^d\right)^4}$$

Yes, we seem to agree here. Let's further simplify:

$$g''(x)=\frac{(a-b)cdx^{d-2}\left(c+x^d\right)\left(c(d-1)-(d+1)x^d\right)}{\left(c+x^d\right)^4}$$

What critical values are in the stated domain?
 
  • #11
Sorry, this is where I am stuck. The algebra is starting to confuse me a bit more so than usual. Could I get a hint of how I am supposed to find the critical values?
 
  • #12
yli said:
Sorry, this is where I am stuck. The algebra is starting to confuse me a bit more so than usual. Could I get a hint of how I am supposed to find the critical values?

From our earlier analysis of the first derivative, we know the only factor in either the numerator or denominator we need to consider is:

$$c(d-1)-(d+1)x^d=0$$

What do you get when solving for $x$? Are there any restrictions on any of the parameters we need to apply?
 

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