Negative-definite inner products

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the properties of inner product spaces, specifically focusing on the existence of maximal subspaces with negative-definite inner products. The participants explore the implications of this conjecture in both finite and infinite-dimensional contexts, utilizing concepts such as Zorn's Lemma and orthonormal bases.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant proposes a conjecture that any inner product space V has a maximal-dimensional subspace where the inner product g is negative-definite, questioning its validity in infinite dimensions.
  • Another participant expresses difficulty in applying Zorn's Lemma to prove the conjecture, particularly in finding an upper bound for a totally ordered subcollection of subspaces with negative-definite inner products.
  • A different idea suggests that the sum of a totally ordered collection of negative-definite subspaces could serve as an upper bound, raising questions about whether this sum retains the negative-definite property.
  • Discussion includes the distinction between finite and infinite-dimensional spaces, noting that while finite-dimensional spaces have orthonormal bases, infinite-dimensional spaces do not necessarily have a matrix representation for the inner product.
  • One participant concludes that the conjecture holds if V has an orthogonal basis but wonders if this condition can be relaxed without affecting the truth of the conjecture.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity of conditions for the conjecture to hold, particularly regarding the existence of orthogonal bases. The discussion remains unresolved regarding whether the conjecture is true in the absence of such conditions.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the potential dependence on the dimensionality of V and the nature of the inner product, as well as the unresolved status of the negative-definite property in the context of infinite-dimensional spaces.

andytoh
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Let V be an inner product space whose inner product g is not positive-definite but simply nondegenerate (Minkowski spacetime is an example). Using Zorn's Lemma I've proven fairly easily that V has a maximal subspace on which g is negative-definite. Now I'm investigating:

Conjecture: V has a subspace, of maximal dimension, on which g is negative-definite. If V is finite-dimensional, this is obviously true. Do you guys think it is true if V is of infinite dimension?
 
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I'm having difficulty proving this using Zorn's Lemma (if it is true at all). Let A be the collection of all subspaces of V on which g is negative-definite. Give A the partial order relation: U < W iff dim(U) < dim (W). Let B be a totally ordered subcollection of A. Now what is an upper bound of B in A? The union of subspaces here is not a subspace because we are not dealing with a chain of subspaces.
 
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Idea: Given a totally ordered subcollection B of A, let W = the SUM of the subspaces in B. Consequently, the dimension of W will be greater than the dimension of each subspace, since W is the span of all the subspaces in B. Thus W is an upper bound of B.

Is W in A? W will be a subspace even if the sum is infinite if I define elements in W to be the set of all finite sums of the elements of the subspaces, right?

The negative-definite property of W: g(v_1+...+v_n, v_1+...+v_n) = oops, though all the g(v_i,v_i) terms are non-positive, there are many g(v_i, v_j) terms that may be positive.
 
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V has an orthonormal basis if it is finite-dimensional (where a unit vector v here is defined as g(v,v)= 1 or -1), but not necessarily if it is infinite-dimensional. It will always have a maximal orthonormal basis however, and thus there will be a maximal submatrix that is diagonalizable. But there is no matrix to represent g if the dimension of V is not countable.

If V has an orthogonal basis then all the g(v_i,v_j) terms would be zero and the proof is complete. Perhaps that is the necessary and sufficient condition for the maximality of the dimension. Though the condition is sufficient, it may not be a necessary condition. My original conjecture is that there is no extra necessary condition on V.

Note: This was a response to a post that was deleted.
 
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Proof complete.

The conjecture is true if V has an orthogonal basis. What I wonder is if this condition on V can be weakened (or have no condition at all) and the conjecture still remain true.
 
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