Negative oxygen ions reaction with hydrogen

[Stanley514]

Under what conditions and how will negative oxygen ions react with hydrogen and hydrocarbons (such as methane or gasoline)?Does it require some catalyst or should be burned together?
What is a way to harness spare electrons from oxygen when water is formed?

 

[Borek]

Where are you going to take negative oxygen ions from?

Oxygen in water doesn't have 'spare electrons'.

 

[Stanley514]

I thought about solid oxide fuel cell operation and way to simplify it.
For example, do we really need cathode and very hot membrane?
What if we will just pass air through some high voltage electrostatic
filter and ionize oxygen in this way?
After that we could mix oxygen ions with hydrogen or hydrocarbons
in presence of catalyst or burn it together and collect electrons which
will form as byproduct of reaction.I whish to know what is practical way
to do it.Could we speed up oxygen ions with ion gun and strike hydrogen
and provoke reaction?Or it could be some glow discharge or some other
catalyst.

 

[Borek]

Seem to me like you have no idea how the fuel cell operates. If you allow direct reaction between oxidizer and reducing agent all you will get is a heat. You have to separate them so that charge have to be transported from one reactant to another - this transport is the source of current.

Have you ever studied galvanic cells? Do you know what salt bridge is for? This is very similar situation.

 

[Stanley514]

If you allow direct reaction between oxidizer and reducing agent all you will get is a heat.

Well,this is a tricky point.I know about operation of fuel cells but in general,not on level of electron clouds.This is what I would be glad to know more deeply.
So in SOFC we get oxygen ions which are conducted through a ceramic membrana and on anode they combine with hydrogen atoms.As result they form water and release two electrons which then flow in the circuit.what do you mean as ``direct reaction``?Do you want to tell that in SOFC oxygen ions and hydrogen react indirectly?But they physically combine together and form water all the same.Some kind of heat is reliesed in any case

The oxidation reaction between the oxygen ions and the hydrogen produces heat as well as water and electricity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_oxide_fuel_cell#Anode
I suggest thet even if you will just burn oxigent ions with hydrogen you will receive gases which will have strong negative electrical charge and could convert it in electricity somehow.

 

[Borek]

There are two separate half reactions:

O₂ + 4e^- -> 2O^2-

and

2H₂ -> 4H⁺ + 4e^-

When you combine them, you have what is happening in the fuel cell. The way it works is O^2- goes though the membrane, while electrons go through the outside circuit. If you mix hydrogen and oxygen there is no way you can separate these charges and use them.

 

[Stanley514]

Probably we just missed point of my original question.
I`m curiuos to know how oxygen ions could combine with hydrogen (not in fuel cell).
For example if we burn them in gasous form, will they create water molecules with negative charge or what?If you don`t know, you could just tell it.You not necessary need to separate charges to get electricity.For example you could charge capacitor from lightning which has unipolar charge.

 

[Stanley514]

Also in this regard I`m curious to know how electrical air ionizers work.
If I no make mistake, all electrical power suplies from power plants to the homes
is based on circulation of electrons,their number do not diminish in the system.
But if many people will use electric negative ion generators it means that you reliese
electrons from the grid to the air.It means number of electrons in the grid should diminish
until nobody know what will happen.How does it really work?

 

[Borek]

There is no such thing as "water molecule with negative charge".

Lightning requires charge separation - clouds are charged differently than the ground.

Electrons in negative ions from air ionizer are not coming from the mains.

You are so off I have no idea where to start.

 

[Stanley514]

There already exist prototypes of fuel cells where no membrane at all used and
both fuels could be mixed.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn9040-bio-fuel-cells-could-power-portable-gadgets.html"

 

[Stanley514]

Lightning requires charge separation - clouds are charged differently than the ground.

Generally I agree, so what`s wrong?

Electrons in negative ions from air ionizer are not coming from the mains.

I don`t know what is ``the mains``, English is not my native language.
Maybe, you understood me in wrong way.I just mean that you need to take electrons physically
from somewhere and cannot create them from nothing.

 

[Borek]

There already exist prototypes of fuel cells where no membrane at all used and
both fuels could be mixed.

They are mixed, but they don't react directly - reactions are separated, each one occurs at a different electrode. This is equivalent to system separated with salt bridge.

You are trying to run before knowing how to walk. Start learning basics of electricity and electrochemistry, as of now your understanding of the fuel cells is severely hampered by misconceptions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_electricity

 

[Stanley514]

They are mixed, but they don't react directly - reactions are separated, each one occurs at a different electrode.

I think they could make the same trick with SOFC method,it could be even easier because you could ionize oxygen just with high voltage filter and after combine it on other electrod with hydrogen in presence of catalyst.